New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring • Hacker News Board

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#161

Post by bumblebritches5 » Tue, Jun 19, 2018, 2:38 PM UTC

That is complete and utter nonsense.

That's not even how tariffs work in the first place, I'll go ahead and give you a little primer.

Tariffs like NAFTA are removed, allowing companies to move to new locations with cheaper resources, so they do.

Tarriffs are introduced, oh no it's no longer profitable to be outside of the country, companies move back.

Perfect example: Foxconn building plants in Wisconsin for Apple.

Is this thread being shilled? how is anyone buying this nonsense when it's so transparently incorrect?

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#162

Post by Nasrudith » Tue, Jun 19, 2018, 2:40 PM UTC

detaro wrote: post #21

IanDrake wrote: post #10

These new tariffs are posturing. Trump seems to understand how to negotiate and is willing to take short term hardship for long term gain. We need to have balanced trade agreements. Not balanced in the sense of trade amount, but balanced in the sense of tariffs and subsidies. Access to US consumers is a big bargaining chip. If China won’t deal, there are other countries that will. I think we all understood we had an…

> Access to US consumers is a big bargaining chip Which is why finished consumer products are not part of the new tariffs, so companies that make stuff in China and ship it to the US are better off than companies buying parts in China and assembling in the US? Or was there a big push of end-product tariffs before that didn't make headlines? In most cases, buying all your parts locally is fairly impractical. (The docu…

I suspect it is about pandering to his base as opposed to health of the nation - assuming it isn't just mindboggling economic illiteracy. He is noticeably promoting trade completely backwards. Normally advanced nations push for more complex, higher capital and infrastructure requirements, or later in the supply chain goods both because of externalities and comparative advantage - any third world nation can cut down trees and allow pollution in - meaning less profit. Instead he has been pushing steel and coal at the expense of finished goods like even kegs. Economically it is like trying to get rich by being a mercantalist colony - the ones that wound up usually lost over mistreatment and doing better after independence.

The US makes most profit via services but is still #2 in manufacturing via the advanced end and remained #1 for a while even during their rise. Given the sheer effort and scale involved by China and it cannibalizing world markets to so that is still very impressive. It brings to mind the US agricultural sector - it is at the top and it is still a tiny portion of the GDP. The top end strategy pays economically.

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#163

Post by anon23423532 » Tue, Jun 19, 2018, 2:41 PM UTC

digitalzombie wrote: post #25

I really hate the new tariff. There is no need to be going into a trade war against not only traditionally our rivals but also our allies now too. The economy is recovering and I believe it may now be heading toward a recession. Here's the quick data on job created in raw number without the quality of the job to show that it is recovering since the 2008 recession: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2…

They tariffed our "allies" because our "allies" allow China to setup shell corporations in their countries so China can abuse trade agreements to get around direct tariffs. In return they make billions for being willing to stab the US in the back.

We need to do this because China steals 300 billion dollars in IP from American corporations every year, in addition to illegally subsidizing their companies to steal global market share

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#164

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jun 19, 2018, 2:44 PM UTC

mchannon wrote: post #153

afpx wrote: post #146

Anyone able and willing (and brave enough) to explain like I’m five why Trump’s decisions could possibly be rational and helpful as opposed to just reactionary and impulsive, as they appear to be?

I don't think it's controversial to say the decisions are rational and helpful, as long as you remember to include "to certain entities". Winners: •Manufacturers of Steel, Aluminum, Electronic Components in US. •Consumers of goods under retaliatory tariffs (pork chops are now going to cost Americans a little less because the Chinese aren't going to import as many). Losers: •Consumers of Steel, etc., including manufac…

[deleted]

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#165

Post by jeffreyrogers » Tue, Jun 19, 2018, 2:44 PM UTC

There seems to be a lot of groupthink on HN. Pretty much every comment in this thread that views tariffs remotely positively is being downvoted. I view them slightly negatively, but protectionism (not necessarily tariffs) does help struggling or new industries develop if coupled with good export policies (see China, Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan for examples), so the idea that tariffs have no arguments for them seems a little farfetched to me.

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#166

Post by psergeant » Tue, Jun 19, 2018, 2:45 PM UTC

jeffreyrogers wrote: post #165

There seems to be a lot of groupthink on HN. Pretty much every comment in this thread that views tariffs remotely positively is being downvoted. I view them slightly negatively, but protectionism (not necessarily tariffs) does help struggling or new industries develop if coupled with good export policies (see China, Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan for examples), so the idea that tariffs have no arguments for them seem…

Another word for “groupthink” is “consensus”

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#167

Post by pjc50 » Tue, Jun 19, 2018, 2:47 PM UTC

adventured wrote: post #159

struppi wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Several European leaders have said publically (though in nicer words) that they don't trust America under this administration anymore. e.g. Sebastian Kurz, a few days ago (1): "The American President is unconventional and American politics has become unpredictable. [...] This is a challenging geopolitical situation." (1) German Interview - https://derstandard.at/2000081642343/Kanzler-Kurz-Wer-auf-Or...

Why would that trust be necessary? It very clearly isn't. Which is not the same as arguing that trust can't be valuable or critical in international relationships depending on the context. China has gone from a $1 trillion to a $13 trillion economy in 20 years, with vast barriers to trade (into their country) and extreme domestic protectionist policies (eg barring majority domestic business ownership, and most foreig…

> The fact is, all nations should pursue their self interest.

This leads to hugely destructive wars. The history of the post-war order has been trying to build common interest through multilateral institutions.

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#168

Post by n1231231231234 » Tue, Jun 19, 2018, 2:47 PM UTC

echotango wrote: post #139

masklinn wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everyone goes nuts when the US suggests implementing tariffs against countries that already have tariffs against us. You gotta admit, the message seems to be that other countries are allowed to protect their domestic industry via tariffs and the US is just supposed to deal with it, don’t wanna start a trade war! You do know the US is already heavily protectionist and many tariffs are protections against the US's pr…

Yup. Heavily protectionist. Thats exactly how an unbiased economist would characterize US trade policy. Stop watching msnbc dude. The USA became the world's largest evonomy with massive tariffs on basically all imports. Smoot Hawley Act anyone? Those were removed gradualy starting in the 1970's and lo and behold the trade deficit sky rocketted while the manufacturing economy plummeted.

i cannot see how the US has no/fewer/lower tariffs than their trading partners. here are some numbers for US-EU trade: https://www.statista.com/statistics/547412/average-eu-and-us...

and here's an article arguing why there's no US-EU trade deficit, in German, though: http://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/handelsstreit-usa-eu-h...

what they argue for: sure, looking at goods, there's a deficit for the US. But once you take services and primary and secondary income into account, then the US actually cuts the better deal with the EU.

imv, trump/the current US gov are twisting the numbers to get a better deal.

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#169

Post by psergeant » Tue, Jun 19, 2018, 2:48 PM UTC

adventured wrote: post #159

struppi wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Several European leaders have said publically (though in nicer words) that they don't trust America under this administration anymore. e.g. Sebastian Kurz, a few days ago (1): "The American President is unconventional and American politics has become unpredictable. [...] This is a challenging geopolitical situation." (1) German Interview - https://derstandard.at/2000081642343/Kanzler-Kurz-Wer-auf-Or...

Why would that trust be necessary? It very clearly isn't. Which is not the same as arguing that trust can't be valuable or critical in international relationships depending on the context. China has gone from a $1 trillion to a $13 trillion economy in 20 years, with vast barriers to trade (into their country) and extreme domestic protectionist policies (eg barring majority domestic business ownership, and most foreig…

I wonder if you could help me understand Trump trying to rescue ZTE in terms of what you’ve just said?

Re: New US Tariffs are Anti-Maker and Will Encourage Offshoring

#170

Post by RoyTyrell » Tue, Jun 19, 2018, 2:48 PM UTC

echotango wrote: post #139

masklinn wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everyone goes nuts when the US suggests implementing tariffs against countries that already have tariffs against us. You gotta admit, the message seems to be that other countries are allowed to protect their domestic industry via tariffs and the US is just supposed to deal with it, don’t wanna start a trade war! You do know the US is already heavily protectionist and many tariffs are protections against the US's pr…

Yup. Heavily protectionist. Thats exactly how an unbiased economist would characterize US trade policy. Stop watching msnbc dude. The USA became the world's largest evonomy with massive tariffs on basically all imports. Smoot Hawley Act anyone? Those were removed gradualy starting in the 1970's and lo and behold the trade deficit sky rocketted while the manufacturing economy plummeted.

> Those were removed gradualy starting in the 1970's [...]

> trade deficit sky rocketted

Is a trade deficit important to not have?

> manufacturing economy plummeted.

By which metric?