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Leap: An Online Community for Women

blog.ycombinator.com

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Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#301

Post by bloaf »

Fishkins wrote: post #282
booleandilemma wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A friend was asked out on dates, unsolicited, multiple times by coworkers. I’m a geek and don’t know the first thing about dating, but doesn’t at least one of the parties involved need to receive an unsolicited request? Isn’t that how it works?

The request usually won't be _explicitly_ solicited, but there are other cues you can pick up on (ie flirting). Of course people can read general friendliness as romantic interest (or vice versa), but you can have at least a decent guess whether someone will be interested in going on a date with you. In some contexts it doesn't hurt to ask when you're unsure, but at work it's better to err on the side of caution (dou…

>there are other cues you can* pick up on

*Assuming that you are neurotypical

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#302

Post by ambivalents »

jochung wrote: post #280
ambivalents wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This once again reads as an illustration of the problem. This isn't an issue of double standards. You do understand the difference in experiences, right, between members of a group comprised and in support of a minority/systematically-unrepresented group, and a counterpart group comprised of a majority/the ones often perpetuating (even if indirectly) this imbalance?

There is plenty of reason to think "systematically underrepresented" is untrue, especially because the yardstick being applied, a 50/50 target, is likely unobtainable. Given that a "bro" was denigrated, persecuted and fired for trying to bring light to some of the causes, there is plenty of reason to think the imbalance being perpetuated is not the one you're thinking of.

So because some guy at big tech co was reprimanded for publishing his opinions on the matter (the veracity of which we don't even need to get into), the real injustice here is a man's inability to speak, not a woman's inability to do her job in a safe/supportive environment?

Both speech and gender issues are complex, no doubt. But what I do have are my own very real, collected experiences as well as those of many other women I've talked to and read about on the topic. There is also plenty of data if you look. [0] It's getting tiring to have to continually explain to men that yes! This is actually a problem! No matter whether you think you've seen differently, no matter what your probably good intentions are. This stuff is happening all around you, and hey, maybe it's because you've enjoyed a lifetime of it not happening to you that you aren't constantly attuned to it.

[0] earlier post in this thread with some links to data https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=16163130&goto=threads%...

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#303

Post by JKCalhoun »

beat wrote: post #238
fortythirteen wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: not in any way attempting to diminish your experience. Only adding my own, to broaden the conversation. It can be a similar experience for men (although it's definitely not something talked about). I've had a female coworker walk up behind me repeatedly and give me unsolicited back rubs and ask me if I wanted to go to an empty office. I've been flirted with and hit on repeatedly. I've had a group of women…

It's not "broadening" the conversation. What you're doing is recentering the conversation as a "Men are victims of women too!" As a rhetorical device, it's so common it has a name. It's called "derailing".

Have an upvote. I agree. While men no doubt are victims as well, does there always have to be that comment? I mean the thread is about a community for women....

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#304

Post by nawgszy »

brucephillips wrote: post #300
QAPereo wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s fascinating and telling that this comment was heavily downvoted, but not surprising. What’s a bit sad is that in that flurry of attempts to disappear your comment, no one had a reply. This seems to be a pattern on HN. Edit @ Brucephillips: What beat is effectively saying is "Keep your mouth shut about your victimization. We're talking about ours right now." Is it surprising that that sort of callousness would be…

Why not just reply to me instead of editing your post?

In the hope you wouldn't reply, perhaps?

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#305

Post by cheez »

fruzz wrote: post #184
cheez wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the solution is what? To impose solutions on the individual who never would have done anything untoward anyway?

Creating an online space that empower women, like Leap, is one example of a solution.

OK, now that I have you, what is the benefit of acknowledging that men as a group do something to hurt women? And if that's the case, what is it that women, as a group do to hurt men?

I believe the awareness of the #metoo movement is powerful, in that it allows me as a male, to say stuff like "that's not cool" when needed.

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#306

Post by cheez »

harlanji wrote: post #263
cheez wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is wrongheaded. Work is a fine place to find partners because you are likely to be educated similarly and have similar life goals. You have to be mature in how you handle it though. One of the women I probably loved most in my life I met at work.

Marriage creates a legal protection between partners which as far as I know is stronger than the employer/employee relationship, so the company is rational to be uncomfortable with such situations in competitive situations where court is plausible. Part of the big money game is playing by more restricted rules.

Sure, but finding partners at work is fine.

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#307

Post by neveroffensive »

I'm not convinced we are going about solving these kind of problems the right way. The community and discourse surrounding these topics in recent years seems to revolve around silos, and making the goals of certain contexts minimization of offense above all else. I don't disagree at all that these methods could achieve improved social integration and opportunity for most people.

However, what about going the opposite direction? What if we decided to accept bullies and bad actors as a fundamental aspect of the system? What if we went even further, and accepted that even non-bullies may believe and act in ways which make us uncomfortable? The solution then would have to involve learning to cope with the complexities of life, rather than working tirelessly to eliminate them.

To tie back into a concrete example. YC in the past has found that minority teams can feel intimidated by working around non-minority teams. What if instead of creating separate working environments to resolve this problem, we instead stated that the minority teams which had issues needed to work through those issues and learn to work in the common environment?

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#309

Post by horsecaptin »

turinapple wrote: post #54

I'm a woman that's worked in tech since 2011... at times the discrimination and treatment I've faced has made me want to quit the industry all together. But every time I reached that point I thought - no, I'm not the one who should have to leave, it's the people -- usually men -- who have not shown empathy, kindness or compassion. The ones who have bullied me and harassed me and made inappropriate comments or advance…

Lets say that you'd like to leave tech. Which industry would you go that is better to women than tech? If there are no alternatives, then what incentives do tech companies have to create an even more acceptable space? At whose expense?

I work in a company with more than 50% women. Many of them worked in teams and companies where it was more than 80% women. They hated it. "Constant politics, catty behavior and backstabbing" is how they describe it.

Re: Leap: An Online Community for Women

#310

Post by [deleted] »

fortythirteen wrote: post #180
fruzz wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those experiences are awful. I do not dispute that there are male victims, including in the workplace. I absolutely agree that "People shouldn't do this to other People". That said, women as a group are disproportionately on the receiving end of improper workplace behaviour overwhelmingly perpetrated by men. And you can't address that dynamic without first acknowledging that it exists and putting words to it. And so,…

> That said, women as a group are disproportionately on the receiving end of improper workplace behaviour overwhelmingly perpetrated by men. Yes, that is definitely the case in places where men outnumber women in positions of power, which is still most businesses. I can tell you, from first hand experience, that when that dynamic is flipped, men, perhaps equally as often, become the more objectified party. IMO this i…

[deleted]
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