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Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#301

Post by andrewla »

Findeton wrote: post #252
andrewla wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding from these articles is that the referendum was that -- a resolution proposal. But the most recent vote (70 for, 10 against, 2 abstains, out of 135 representatives) is a direct declaration of independence. I don't speak Spanish and I can't find any primary sources on it, but this is what all the news sources that I have seen are saying. If you have more information or citations, I'd love to see them.…

It's a declaration of independence, approved in a resolution proposal, which means it's a petition to the Catalan government, not a law or anything like that. Which means it hasn't changed the legal body at all. The Catalan government could also ignore the petition, as it's not a binding mandate, just a petition. My sources? I am Spanish and I have friends who are lawyers. EDIT: You mention the Catalan Gov's twitter.…

I'm unclear on who exactly you're saying the players are here. I though that this vote was undertaken by the Catalan Government -- namely, the parliament. Are these distinct organizations? Who, exactly, are you saying the Catalan Parliament is petitioning?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#303

Post by Allower »

mvitorino wrote: post #122

What does this even mean: "declared independence"? Have they ordered borders to be closed? Bank accounts to be frozen until new currency is introduced? Have people started throwing their Spanish passports and their euros into the trash? It just sounds like a lot like pure political manoeuvre without any kind of practical consequence.

I think its pretty clear - they no longer recognize the Spanish governments authority..

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#304

Post by zeveb »

fusiongyro wrote: post #272
smcl wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice catch 22 - between (2) and (8). You are allowed to secede if you vote for it ... but you're not allowed to vote to secede.

Is there a legal way for US states to secede?

The 10th Amendment reads 'The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.'

The Constitution is silent on secession: it neither forbids it nor lays out procedures for it. Since the power to remove a State from the United States is not delegated to the United States, it is reserved to the respective States, or to the people.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#305

Post by Ajedi32 »

Findeton wrote: post #252
andrewla wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding from these articles is that the referendum was that -- a resolution proposal. But the most recent vote (70 for, 10 against, 2 abstains, out of 135 representatives) is a direct declaration of independence. I don't speak Spanish and I can't find any primary sources on it, but this is what all the news sources that I have seen are saying. If you have more information or citations, I'd love to see them.…

It's a declaration of independence, approved in a resolution proposal, which means it's a petition to the Catalan government, not a law or anything like that. Which means it hasn't changed the legal body at all. The Catalan government could also ignore the petition, as it's not a binding mandate, just a petition. My sources? I am Spanish and I have friends who are lawyers. EDIT: You mention the Catalan Gov's twitter.…

I'm confused. A petition to the Catalan government, by the Catalan parliament? They're petitioning themselves?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#306

Post by carlosrg »

johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

A government doesn't declare things "illegal", judges are the ones that do it. According to our constitution, Spain is not divisible, plus regions can't decide something like that in a referendum because national sovereignty belongs to all Spanish citizens. I.e. regions aren't sovereign. Same as most if not all federal governments out there, by the way.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#307

Post by icebraining »

alvatar wrote: post #75
icebraining wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is just the propaganda machine is much more developed on that side Thus supporting the case that Catalonia is being dragged down by Spain - even their propaganda machines are better! :D

Thank you for polarizing into "better and worse" humans.

It's called a joke. I'm a descendant of Galicians myself.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#308

Post by dan_mctree »

bad_user wrote: post #223
jerf wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You need to read history to understand the situation." That is true if we want to analyze the question of whether or not Catalan "should" be independent from Spain, a question so murky and shot through with political philosophy, theory, and pragmatics that even two sides that stipulate all the same facts can come to different conclusions. But for what johnnyfaehell was really getting at, which is a tactical and/or s…

If you'll look at our history, there is no separation that happened peacefully. Historically speaking, an independence declaration is equivalent to a declaration of war. And Catalonia will receive no international support because all countries have regions with minorities that wished for independence at some point — well, except maybe from Russia, or other countries that want instability in the region.

The international/European response is not set in stone and could wildly vary based on the Spanish response. If they send in troops, and should those troops fire on civilians, the Spanish may well lose international support. They were heavily condemned just for their police actions around the referendum.

There also aren't that many countries that have serious internal strife in the western world anyway, that point is always wildly overstated. The UK has independence movements but they've already allowed a referendum so they may not care. Belgium and Russia have some serious internal trouble, but the importance of their support may be too small to matter (and indeed Russia may encourage discord). France and Italy? But are their minorities really serious enough? What else is there? The vast majority of Europe will swing towards what has the best optics, as will the US. Sure they may pick stability first, but if that's out because of civil war, it becomes anyones guess.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#309

Post by babuskov »

hummel wrote: post #88

Spanish here, I have family and home in Catalonia. 1) You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain. There is no 2) Voting is illegal, it is not illegal to vote but…

> You need to read history to understand the situation.

If the people read history the way you propose, USA would never be a free country.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#310

Post by confounded »

eponeponepon wrote: post #187
joaomval wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many countries got independent legally?

Plenty. India, Kenya, Australia, Canada and various ex-SSRs all spring to mind. Not many without violence on the run-up, I'll grant you, but in many cases, the actual process of independence was performed entirely legally.

Yes, often quite a bit of violence in the run up. Whether the imperialist side wants to try and look good at the point of capitulation or not has little to do with how “legal” the effectual parts of fighting for independence are.

To suggest that, e.g. Gandhi didn’t have a meaningful role in achieving India’s independence, because the British considered his actions illegal, is very silly.

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