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Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

nytimes.com

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Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#301

Post by jcoffland »

ilaksh wrote: post #183
JackFr wrote: post #19

If its only going to jobless people, not UBI. This is not a meaningless distinction -- one of the features of UBI is that it is universal . If this just goes to unemployed people we cannot see the change in behavior with people who are earning close to their reservation wage. Do they stop working? This is streamlined rebranded welfare. Not a paradigm shift.

Exactly. Its bad because it is reported as a UBI test but is pretty much the opposite because it does not change the one thing UBI changes which is that you continue to receive the money even when you get a job.

The article says they will continue to get they money even while earning money elsewhere. They are just selecting jobless people to start the program.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#302

Post by jcoffland »

logicallee wrote: post #280
JackFr wrote: post #19

If its only going to jobless people, not UBI. This is not a meaningless distinction -- one of the features of UBI is that it is universal . If this just goes to unemployed people we cannot see the change in behavior with people who are earning close to their reservation wage. Do they stop working? This is streamlined rebranded welfare. Not a paradigm shift.

how pissed would everyone be if one of these people became a millionaire through working on some business while using Finland's cash handout to finance it. even though the taxes from that is exactly what would make the whole program absolutely free - and is the basic point behind a UBI. It really is "free" for the country. A proper test of UBI has to make it available to everyone.

Why would anyone be pissed? If someone else does well how does that hurt you?

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#303

Post by vixen99 »

lastyearman wrote: post #116
briandear wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Explain to me why my tax dollars should pay for other people again? I am not sure I understand why my labor must pay for others against my wishes. If I want to donate to charity, I will. Taxes should be used to pay for shared resources (roads, police, military,) but paying other people's living expenses? No thanks. America has poor and unemployed, yet Democrats seem to have no problem with illegal immigration which r…

Few reasons come to mind: The way capitalism is designed is that not everyone can have a job. So you pay the poor not to starve and come loot your house. Also, I believe, there was a study suggesting that more equal society is better for everyone involved, including you. Poverty also inhibits education and I suppose you can figure out why uneducated or lowly educated society is bad.

Capitalism is 'designed'? So who were the 'Marx and Engels' of capitalism when folk were trading with each other out of their caves?

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#304

Post by darpa_escapee »

jcoffland wrote: post #302
logicallee wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how pissed would everyone be if one of these people became a millionaire through working on some business while using Finland's cash handout to finance it. even though the taxes from that is exactly what would make the whole program absolutely free - and is the basic point behind a UBI. It really is "free" for the country. A proper test of UBI has to make it available to everyone.

Why would anyone be pissed? If someone else does well how does that hurt you?

People are jealous and have been pretty good at coming up with reasons why certain people don't deserve nice things for quite some time.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#305

Post by Ericson2314 »

austinjp wrote: post #250

What's to stop UBI from "cancelling itself out" due to inflationary effects? Prior to UBI, the lowest possible income is zero. After UBI, the lowest income is X. The poorest people in the nation will have an income of X, so X becomes the new relative zero, the new baseline. Prices of everything (food, housing, whatever) will reset relative to X. So uni will become worthless shortly after it's introduced.... but only…

"Multiplicative" basic income (i.e. government gives you x * what you'd get otherwise) would do that, but basic income is additive.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#306

Post by Ericson2314 »

steakeater wrote: post #299

UBI is a terrible idea. Anyone who thinks that the government handing out money to everyone is a good idea needs to snap out of the propaganda machine. Those who fund you, control you. There is no way around that. When the people funding everyone is the government, and the people do nothing in return, that places huge amounts of power in the hands of a single entity, and removes all power from the people. Large compa…

Wat.

- UBI's lack of criteria is supposed to remove distortions. The population is minimaly incentivized.

- Employers loose leverage with UBI; large companies are major employers.

- Everybody loves to hate on population size, but shrinking/aging populations are dangerous for the economy. It's a much more complex problem.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#307

Post by vsl »

jcoffland wrote: post #302
logicallee wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how pissed would everyone be if one of these people became a millionaire through working on some business while using Finland's cash handout to finance it. even though the taxes from that is exactly what would make the whole program absolutely free - and is the basic point behind a UBI. It really is "free" for the country. A proper test of UBI has to make it available to everyone.

Why would anyone be pissed? If someone else does well how does that hurt you?

By taking your hard earned money away to fund such schemes (taxes, you know?)

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#308

Post by steakeater »

Ericson2314 wrote: post #306
steakeater wrote: post #299

UBI is a terrible idea. Anyone who thinks that the government handing out money to everyone is a good idea needs to snap out of the propaganda machine. Those who fund you, control you. There is no way around that. When the people funding everyone is the government, and the people do nothing in return, that places huge amounts of power in the hands of a single entity, and removes all power from the people. Large compa…

Wat. - UBI's lack of criteria is supposed to remove distortions. The population is minimaly incentivized. - Employers loose leverage with UBI; large companies are major employers. - Everybody loves to hate on population size, but shrinking/aging populations are dangerous for the economy. It's a much more complex problem.

You are just replacing one leverage with another (employers with government). In most places, the employers own the government anyway as they provide the revenue.

I don't know what your first point means. Your last point, you are just repeating what you have read somewhere. Population increases do not change the aging population. The new people also age believe it or not.

Also stop being childish with your "wat" bullshit.

Re: Finland will hand out cash to 2000 jobless people to test universal basic income

#309

Post by Ericson2314 »

nradov wrote: post #157

Instead of just giving people money our governments at federal / state / local levels should become employers of last resort for everyone who has exhausted their welfare or unemployment benefits. Guarantee 30 hours / week at minimum wage to anyone who wants to work. Even if it's just trail maintenance or graffiti cleanup they will at least be maintaining basic employment skills, and have enough spare time to retrain…

What's the point of making people do stupid ass jobs?

Now I'm all for spending money on the commons in ways the private sector is too petty to address, but do this for the results of the investment, not just for employment.

I'm more OK with adjusting UBI to cancel out fluctuations in infrastructure spending.

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