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Never accept a counter-offer

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Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#301

Post by jsprogrammer »

cookiecaper wrote: post #183
prklmn wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people are afraid to ask for raises and default to looking for work elsewhere.

There is great political risk in requesting a raise. Many employers would take offense and consider it an insult, and for some reason, after you've gone to that substantial political risk, a lot of employers seem to think that their employees should be content with raises of 2-5%. If you do get a raise, the counteroffer issue is still valid; your employer is given cause to question your loyalty and may be more suspic…

Most employment contracts do not consider loyalty. Typically, either side has the explicit right to terminate the relationship at any time, for any reason.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#302

Post by amyjess »

byoung2 wrote: post #207
morsch wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[H]ow I would never work in this town again I can see where the arguments about trust etc are coming from (not that I necessarily agree), but that one I don't get at all.

She said that neither she nor anyone else at her recruiting firm would work with me ever again, which lasted about a year before they started emailing me job listings again. Be prepared if you accept a counteroffer after working with a recruiter, they will definitely hold it against you (that fee is 20% of your first year salary or more), plus it makes them look bad to the company they're working for.

> She said that neither she nor anyone else at her recruiting firm would work with me ever again

If she actually thought that was tantamount to "you'll never work in this town again", she needs a reality check. Oh, this one recruiter firm won't work with me, whatever will I do?

I've worked at four different companies. In order, I got those jobs through Craigslist (2007), Monster (2012), Indeed (2014), and a friend referral (2016). None of them involved recruiters. Also, during the times I've been looking, I talked to a very large number of recruiters. If one of them blackballed me, it wouldn't affect me because I talked to so many other recruiting firms, and even then I ended up getting all my jobs without them.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#303

Post by thembones »

daniel_iversen wrote: post #155

I'd like to suggest a rule of thumb from the employer's/manager's side that I was given by a mentor once (and I've seen the consequences anecdotally both when I followed it and when I didn't); Just like the article suggests not to accept a counter offer I'd say don't ever GIVE a counter offer (or try to keep the employee resigning). Of course always treat your people well and try your best to resolve issues and keep…

Giving counter-offers is just as bad as accepting, you're right. This has been written on as well, http://bramcohen.com/2011/12/04/never-make-counter-offers

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#304

Post by amyjess »

vonmoltke wrote: post #122
galdosdi wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(1) 20 companies to get an offer is very high for software engineering / related work in major hubs (eg NYC, bay, etc) (2) If you're applying to similar jobs (in terms of skill) then a single amount of prep can be shared among many I know many who try to "get in the market" every year or so just for "curiosity"

> (1) 20 companies to get an offer is very high for software engineering / related work in major hubs (eg NYC, bay, etc) Not everybody lives in a major hub, and for those who don't it can be really hard to get a company in one to notice you exist, let alone make you an offer.

Thank you. I've noticed your username come up a lot in these kinds of threads, and you're one of the only people I've seen whose experiences matched mine.

Job-hunting in Dallas is hard. I've been unemployed twice. The first time was long-term (to the point where it was affecting my sanity) and during the Great Recession. The second time, which was earlier this year, wasn't that long but still harrowing. After I got laid off, it was two months before I got an in-person interview. I got the job, but I'm fairly sure that a good part of the reason I was even considered for an interview was because one of my best friends works here and put in a good word for me with HR.

Also, on at least three occasions I've tried job-hunting while employed. Only one time did I actually find a new job before giving up.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#305

Post by UseStrict »

I accepted a counteroffer with mixed results. I was given an offer at a company in Europe which pretty closely matched my salary and perks. It came with a small pay bump but most importantly, extra vacation time and a solid relocation bonus. I had submitted notice with my current employer, who gave me a counteroffer matching the money, increasing my holidays and giving me the ability to work remotely from wherever I chose. I accepted the counteroffer because I still liked the company I work for and they now were meeting my other requirements.

About 6 months later I was planning my relocation when I was notified by HR that they would not be fulfilling that part of my contract citing nothing but "legal requirements." I have been intensely bitter towards them ever since.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#306

Post by cema »

CydeWeys wrote: post #145
WhitneyLand wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the many benefits to working for a high performing manager. They will have more clout to argue on your behalf for raises and promotions. Not to mention it's easier to grow around higher caliber people.

Some of the best advice I've ever gotten, and I'm so glad I followed it, is to ignore details like what the product is entirely, and pick the team to join solely based on the manager. It's worked out very well. There was a survey I remember reading earlier this year about how the single biggest factor causing dissatisfaction at work is having a bad boss.

  pick the team to join solely based on the manager
My experience too. Of course there are other factors, but this is (arguably) the most important factor of all; the rest are just constraints, and this is like the objective function.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#307

Post by cookiecaper »

jsmthrowaway wrote: post #291
cookiecaper wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Easy to say, but not how it works in the real world. If you walk in to your boss's office and accuse him of underpaying you, he's going to feel hurt. That's the natural reaction. Telling him "business is business" is not likely to improve his feelings. Business would be better named "pampering giant babies", because that's what it is. Despite the mythology that we're programmed with, most of the work of being in char…

I assure you that you're frighteningly wrong about everything here and that your own personal insecurities are reinforcing a flawed opinion about how business works. I'm not sure how to communicate that to you, though. I'm genuinely at a loss about how to explain that your comment is extremely bad advice and is the type of outlook that most people who can't assert themselves develop. The most important thing in anyth…

>Do you really think Tim Cook gets up before sunrise to manage his SVPs' feelings?

Partially. His primary job is managing investor's feelings.

>Maybe I'm totally wrong but if I am, a whole lot of people who aren't you are too.

You believe the version of the world that they want you to believe, not the world as it is. That's understandable. The powers-that-be project this narrative specifically because if people know their job is to manipulate feelings, it'll be much more difficult to do that effectively.

Good managers want to make themselves sound like self-sacrificial superheroes and inspire hero worship so that it's easier to manage the subordinate's feelings. That's the narrative they project.

However, it doesn't take an intelligent person much reading or experience to realize that things don't line up with the narrative. Management is all about managing feelings. Yes, it's true that management has to make decisions that won't bankrupt the company, but that's the easy, minor part. The difficult part is pushing those decisions through the organization with as little feeling-damage as possible, and running programs of feeling-grooming to keep your employees cooperative.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#308

Post by fecak »

dlhavema wrote: post #285
byoung2 wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am quite good at negotiating raises, and I know when I can push and when to hold back: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12122526

i definitely am not. that is one skill i hope to learn before i move on. Granted, i'm pretty happy where i'm at right now, but it could useful in the future...

One helpful tip - if you're not good at it, try to avoid doing it in real-time. Negotiating via email is much easier for beginners.

In face-to-face communications, those not accustomed to negotiating will often give in just based on misread cues. For example, if someone asks how much you want, and you say a number, stop talking until you get a response. Many beginner negotiators will interpret silence as disagreement (even a short amount of silence) and quickly add "but that number is negotiable".

I have this happen all the time when I'm doing profiles of new candidates, particularly when they are junior. They say "I"m looking for 60K, but I am willing to negotiate". I usually respond by telling them they have already backtracked before receiving any objections.

Practice or get some coaching, and until that time, try to do it via email.

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#309

Post by st3v3r »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #215
cookiecaper wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it was unethical. In fact, finding out there is a salary disparity between peers is probably one of the most common ways that large salary raises occur. For that reason, and also because that disparity may result in legal liability if the peers have differing demographic profiles, some companies threaten to terminate anyone who reveals his or her salary to another employee.

> some companies threaten to terminate anyone who reveals his or her salary to another employee. In many jurisdictions, this is illegal.

When has something being illegal stopped a company from doing something that could save and/or make it more money?

Re: Never accept a counter-offer

#310

Post by graywh »

signa11 wrote: post #214
bzbarsky wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What threat model are you defending against? Because the people at positions N and N+2 in your scheme can collude to determine the salary of the person at position N+1 without even having to reveal their own salaries in the process...

> What threat model are you defending against? umm, not really trying to prevent from folks actively sabotage the whole thing, but just seeing if it actually works i.e gives the correct average salary... but yes, as you have pointed out, people at N and N+2 can collude to get the original salary (for N+1).

Have a third party generate a set of tokens, one per person, recording only their sum, and randomly distribute them to the group. Then you don't need to pass the cumulative sum from person to person.

Edit: I guess it doesn't even have to be a third party as long as everyone trusts the randomization (e.g., pulling identical pieces of folded paper from a hat).

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