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UK votes to leave EU

bbc.co.uk

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Re: UK votes to leave EU

#301

Post by jan_g »

doikor wrote: post #279
darawk wrote: post #271

So, devil's advocate here: Can someone explain to me why this is a bad thing? I feel like most educated people seem to think this is terrible (and the markets seem to agree), but to me, the European union seems like an anti-democratic institution that doesn't really provide much value. I mean, don't me wrong, removing trade barriers is probably good. But won't the UK just be able to pretty quickly renegotiate basical…

UK most likely wont be able to negotiate similar terms with EU countries. France/Germany at least will be pissed with them and give UK terrible deals out of spite. I expect a lot of other EU countries to do the same. edit: Also I now have to buy my shit from France/Germany Amazon? (Or just have an English language Amazon for the continental Europe please...)

At least amazon.de already provides English language version of the site. I don't know about French Amazon, never used it for ordering.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#302

Post by sverige »

What about the precedent of the previous, say, five or six centuries of European history? All of that is, in part, the story of "other countries' own interests."

History has rightly judged Neville Chamberlain as an abysmal failure in dealing with German interests. I'm happy that Britain has given Merkel and her cronies the finger.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#303

Post by kinkdr »

meowface wrote: post #208

In my opinion, the chances of any sort of war at this point remain pretty low. However, it's possible a Trump presidency and fractured EU might lead to a perfect storm for some kind of global conflict in a few years. I think still a low chance, but it does almost sound like the beginning chapter of a history book.

> In my opinion, the chances of any sort of war at this point remain pretty low.

At this point yes.

But what about 10, 15, 50 years from now on?

My opinion is that the chances of a war are far greater in a Europe of nations vs a Europian union vs a Europian nation.

I really hope Germany, France, Italy and the rest take a notice on the wake up call and transform this to an opportunity for tighter integration.

And Greece too. Get your shit together Greece!

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#304

Post by paganel »

beninvalencia wrote: post #122

As other comments have noted, the point is that the EU will not want to give the UK a good deal on leaving, because the EU does not want to give any encouragement to the other countries which want to leave the EU (some of which want to leave more strongly than the UK do - apparently). Secondly, why would the UK end up with a Norway or Switzerland deal, when the UK is the 5th largest economy in the world? This is unpr…

> The scaremongering goes on even after the vote has been called...

The terms are simple: You can't have free movement of goods without the equally free movement of people. As long as people in the UK are ok with the free movement of people (even though the fight against it was a big part of the "Leave" campaign) then I would see no reason why us, the rest of the EU people, should impede the UK products' access to the European market. You can't have your lunch and eat it too, meaning you can't be against free movement of people (against "immigration") and then expect us to accept your economic products. It's not "scaremongering", this are the true, hard facts.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#305

Post by sho_hn »

darawk wrote: post #271

So, devil's advocate here: Can someone explain to me why this is a bad thing? I feel like most educated people seem to think this is terrible (and the markets seem to agree), but to me, the European union seems like an anti-democratic institution that doesn't really provide much value. I mean, don't me wrong, removing trade barriers is probably good. But won't the UK just be able to pretty quickly renegotiate basical…

But how well does the UK do on democracy: Scottland and Northern Ireland will be removed from the EU against their will, by a narrow majority mostly built in Northern England. How does that actually get people a government closer to them? It seems much more sensible to remove the useless middle layer (i.e. the UK) and for everyone to collaborate in the EU.

The EU being anti-democratic sounds like a case of "citation needed" for me. What major problems remain after the 2009 changes?

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#306

Post by UK-AL »

cromulent wrote: post #299
darawk wrote: post #271

So, devil's advocate here: Can someone explain to me why this is a bad thing? I feel like most educated people seem to think this is terrible (and the markets seem to agree), but to me, the European union seems like an anti-democratic institution that doesn't really provide much value. I mean, don't me wrong, removing trade barriers is probably good. But won't the UK just be able to pretty quickly renegotiate basical…

There are many ways to look at it. One way is that the old non-unified Europe used to fight a lot, and the smaller states could be preyed upon. The unified one doesn't have these issues. Therefore you could see the EU as a Good Thing (in fact they won a Nobel Peace Prize for this). Therefore anything in the opposite direction is bad. Of course, things are not that simple. In general, I think that society is slowly mo…

Globalism still means there could be countries. But borders will mean less.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#307

Post by arisAlexis »

The historians of the future will point at Greece for playing a major role in brexit and any subsequent demise of Europe with gaming the financial system and f*ng up the immigration issue.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#308

Post by ausvisaissues »

gakada wrote: post #280
darawk wrote: post #271

So, devil's advocate here: Can someone explain to me why this is a bad thing? I feel like most educated people seem to think this is terrible (and the markets seem to agree), but to me, the European union seems like an anti-democratic institution that doesn't really provide much value. I mean, don't me wrong, removing trade barriers is probably good. But won't the UK just be able to pretty quickly renegotiate basical…

Single market. Despite some bigots who don't want Polish people existing near them, having free movement of people, goods, capital and all the rest of it is really good for the participant economies. Can you imagine if US citizens had to get a visa to move from New York to California?

I don’t have a horse in this race, but the language you use (‘bigoted’) is way too strong…

The UK is a really popular immigration destination (perhaps due to it being a rich English-speaking economy and the legacy of its colonial empire).

Let's say the British public is willing to accept a fixed amount of immigrants. The UK can easily fill this up with high-skilled immigrants (Masters/PhD’s in technical fields). Wouldn't that be better than accepting blue-collar workers from Eastern Europe? Are you ‘bigoted’ because I think a PhD from India would be better for the economy than a blue-collar worker from E-Europe?

It is high-time that the UK start re-engaging with its own commonwealth. This includes closer trade and immigration.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#309

Post by disordinary »

The average age of someone who is voting to leave is above 60, the average age of someone who is voting to stay is below 35. The older generation have voted for something that the younger generation did not want but are now stuck with. They have voted away their future for short term gains.

The sooner the baby boomers are all retired the better.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#310

Post by riffraff »

darawk wrote: post #271

So, devil's advocate here: Can someone explain to me why this is a bad thing? I feel like most educated people seem to think this is terrible (and the markets seem to agree), but to me, the European union seems like an anti-democratic institution that doesn't really provide much value. I mean, don't me wrong, removing trade barriers is probably good. But won't the UK just be able to pretty quickly renegotiate basical…

you can't really negotiate trade tariffs without agreeing on consistent regulation (i.e. you won't be able to sell stuff which is illegal in the EU). So basically you end up in the same position, having to abide by EU regulation, but without having weight in the decisional process. It's silly, really.

FWIW, there is a host of things where nothing will change, as most treaties don't get invalidated and the UK is still a member of the council of europe, EEA, EU customs union etc

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