VPAID ads destroy performance and are still served by major ad networks • Hacker News Board

Re: VPAID ads destroy performance and are still served by major ad networks

#301

Post by bunderbunder » Tue, Jun 14, 2016, 4:09 PM UTC

manigandham wrote: post #280

spiderfarmer wrote: post #133

What I would like in a new kind of Ad network: - all ads are responsive HTML5 ads - all resources are loaded over HTTPS - ads are based on your content, not on a profile of the user - ads can be requested server side by sending the URL where the ad will be displayed through an API. The response contains the ad code, as well as the expiration date - if you want, you can even download a package with all resources so ad…

We already built this - https://instinctive.io It's the fastest ad network around. Simple, fast, static, all user-initiated, and we only focus on content (articles, videos, etc that you read on the same site you're already on). We also don't work with any 3rd parties so there's no security or malware risk. Happy to share any technical details. There are good ad networks out there but in this strange industry, it's al…

You had me quite intrigued, at least until I saw native advertising being mentioned so prominently on the front page. Unbridled resource consumption and tracking are far from the only ethical concern around the modern ad industry. The breakdown of the barrier between journalistic content and paid content is another big one.

Re: VPAID ads destroy performance and are still served by major ad networks

#302

Post by tomjen3 » Tue, Jun 14, 2016, 4:12 PM UTC

spiderfarmer wrote: post #133

What I would like in a new kind of Ad network: - all ads are responsive HTML5 ads - all resources are loaded over HTTPS - ads are based on your content, not on a profile of the user - ads can be requested server side by sending the URL where the ad will be displayed through an API. The response contains the ad code, as well as the expiration date - if you want, you can even download a package with all resources so ad…

As the ultimative target of your ads, I just want ads for products that doesn't suck and that actually cater to my needs and interests - I honestly don't care if they are HTML5 or responsive, though I am not sure I even have a flash player anymore so I suggest HTML5 as the most practical solution.

But the problem with ads isn't the technical issue, it is that they suck, horribly, because the products on offer are useless, offensive, or just plain not interesting. Facebook kept showing me offers for a shitty dating site that I am almost sure was a scam, for magic healing crystals, for utility services from a company 100s of miles away. At one point they even offered me to take the degree I already had, from the university I had already attended, despite the fact that facebook knew this.

Google kept giving me ads for the same shitty apartment search site after I moved into my new apartment, rather than something useful, such as curtains, furniture, etc.

Get an ad network that can actually deliver interesting ads I won't care how many requests it makes.

Re: VPAID ads destroy performance and are still served by major ad networks

#303

Post by cantlin » Tue, Jun 14, 2016, 4:13 PM UTC

pawadu wrote: post #205

cantlin wrote: post #184

At the Guardian we needed our own video player, because we couldn't rely on a third party platform not to take down something that we published. Editorial independence was important. We implemented our player on top of video.js, and most of the developers who were there at the time still have nightmares about it. We finally got the thing working, looking good, embeddable, reasonably cross-browser. We shipped it. A fe…

Thanks for sharing this. May I ask, did anyone tried to talk to the management about the long term effects of this? Long term = people will eventually learn to avoid your site because BBC feels much more responsive.

We spent a lot of time talking about that balance. The thing to remember is that these conversations are happening in the context of an industry that's in structural decline. You have ever lower print revenues, and Facebook and Google taking 80%+ of the spend that's moving to digital. And then you have a sales culture incentivised on short-term outcomes. In that environment it becomes really hard to turn down a buck.

My two cents right now would be that consumer revenues (people paying you directly) is probably the only way to run a profitable generalist news company. That, or have the backing of a nation state (BBC) or philanthropic institution. If you want to run a business from ads on the internet, you need a great case for why you're a better option than Facebook, and most news companies just can't make that case.

Re: VPAID ads destroy performance and are still served by major ad networks

#304

Post by nostrebored » Tue, Jun 14, 2016, 4:14 PM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #269

thirdsun wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for your insight. Maybe I'm naive but how are these ads of any value to the advertiser? - nobody wants them, everybody ignores them. How can ads that surely almost exclusively receive accidental clicks be so worthwhile for publishers like you?

I think most people here probably have your point of view. I certainly do. I don't think I've ever intentionally clicked on an ad. These days I am aggressive with ad blockers backed up by a local /etc/hosts file to neutralize the most common ad network domains. But the general public? I don't know. I don't think a lot of people really distinguish between the ads at the top of a google search and the actual search res…

I find the idea in tech that "ads don't affect us" to be baffling. As others have pointed out, it's ridiculously effective and money well spent.

I think in very few cases (maybe Amazon ads are an exception) ads cause people to go out and immediately buy things -- but with constant exposure over time, the likelihood that you're going to buy something goes up.

Seriously, this is an entire profession, it's not voodoo, people aren't just sheeple, it works.

Much in the same way that research has shown (pretty conclusively) that exposing yourself to violent television over and over again makes you more violent and less concerned with violence happening around you.

Re: VPAID ads destroy performance and are still served by major ad networks

#305

Post by manigandham » Tue, Jun 14, 2016, 4:14 PM UTC

bunderbunder wrote: post #301

manigandham wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We already built this - https://instinctive.io It's the fastest ad network around. Simple, fast, static, all user-initiated, and we only focus on content (articles, videos, etc that you read on the same site you're already on). We also don't work with any 3rd parties so there's no security or malware risk. Happy to share any technical details. There are good ad networks out there but in this strange industry, it's al…

You had me quite intrigued, at least until I saw native advertising being mentioned so prominently on the front page. Unbridled resource consumption and tracking are far from the only ethical concern around the modern ad industry. The breakdown of the barrier between journalistic content and paid content is another big one.

Our site is years old and needs a refresh but there's a lot of nuance in this.

Native is a complicated term that gets overused but the way we see it is a combination of look/feel + context + behavior. Most "native" ads today are just the look/feel but crappy irrelevant content that makes no sense on the site or isn't content at all but just takes you to some sales landing page like any other banner ad.

However, there can be good quality content (educational, informative, entertaining, and not just primarily selling) that happens to be sponsored by a brand. Native isn't about tricking the user but about being unobtrusive. The same way you would skip a news headline you're not interested in, you would skip a native ad placement as well (at least this is how it should work).

People read what they want to read and sometimes it's advertising. There's nothing wrong with that. What we do is make sure everything is properly labeled (to FTC standards) and user-initiated so that users know what it is and make their own choice - and I believe transparency and choice are the best things we can offer.

Re: VPAID ads destroy performance and are still served by major ad networks

#306

Post by volatilitish » Tue, Jun 14, 2016, 4:16 PM UTC

Tyr42 wrote: post #274

mercer wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What it means in practice though, is that if you use another ad network, and that ad network has an advert that Google dislike, they will block your website on Chrome,Firefox and Safari also uses it now I believe. They won't just block the advert, they will block your whole website. Getting unblocked takes ages, and is a complete pain, because google will not tell you which advert it objects to. Does this actually…

It's usually a legitimately harmful ad. Malware, adware or other bad stuff. But these slip through quality control of ad networks, even when they don't want them.

It's worse than that IMHO.

They dislike "deceptive" adverts. So for example, if it's an image, saying "download" then Google will block your website.

Who knows, maybe in the future they'll start banning websites that advertise gambling or other things they dislike.

Now I do think that adverts like that are irritating, and deceptive, but should the website that happens to be using an ad-network, that allowed an advertiser to upload an image that says "download", be blocked so that users cannot access it from Chrome and firefox? Of course not. Censorship in browsers is just not a good thing going forward. And pretty much every ad-network (Even adsense) has problems keeping out bad adverts. I don't see why Google should penalise website owners for an advertising-industry-wide problem.

IMHO It should be investigated by governments, as it's a clear case of using their muscle to retain their absolute monopoly of online advertising.

Re: VPAID ads destroy performance and are still served by major ad networks

#307

Post by manigandham » Tue, Jun 14, 2016, 4:19 PM UTC

roymurdock wrote: post #297

manigandham wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who's been in the adtech business for years, I admire the Guardian for being one of the better engineered sites out there when it comes to ads. At least you guys have fast loading content and try to optimize the experience as much as you can. We built a brand new modern ad network[1] and it's amazing how few advertisers and publishers care or even understand how important a good user experience is. 1. http…

Seems like the ad market is bifurcating: "native content" for those with ad blockers, and ridiculous garbage-ads for those who either (1) don't have the tech literacy to install and run an adblocker, or (2) are whitelisting out of empathy for content creators. Increasingly I believe we'll see the former. Does "native content" (paid-for pieces disguised as objective information) require "sophisticated" ad network tech…

There's a difference between the formats and the distribution systems.

Content has always been a good marketing tool, we're just starting to see a lot more of it with publishers setting up their own "agencies" to sell pieces written by the same teams but for advertisers. Some are actually really great (Netflix stories for example).

When it comes to distribution, there is just a lot that needs to be done for advertising. Part of the big draw for digital/online is all the data you can collect and analyze and use to optimize. Publishers usually do not have the technical resources to build this or manage and integrate with all the other thousands of systems that advertisers use. It's almost always worth it to have a vendor that specializes in the infrastructure so publishers can just focus on their own business.

However, because adblockers mostly work at the network interface level, the typical 3rd party javascript tag approach is very easy to disable, and self-published native content by publishers using the existing content management system is a good workaround. It's more of a stop gap then a long term approach though.

Re: VPAID ads destroy performance and are still served by major ad networks

#308

Post by c0nducktr » Tue, Jun 14, 2016, 4:24 PM UTC

archon810 wrote: post #84

snarfy wrote: post #11

Sites need to be legally liable for installing malware on your computer. That will solve all of this. I can go to prison for clicking on the wrong link but somehow they get away with drive-by ransomware installs.

This is laughable. If site owners could go to jail every time a 3rd-party code they're not fully responsible for does something bad, they'd all be in jail now. https://blog.malwarebytes.org/threat-analysis/2015/08/large-... http://arstechnica.com/security/2016/03/big-name-sites-hit-b... Etc.

You don't have to jail them. I think a hefty fine would do the trick.

Re: VPAID ads destroy performance and are still served by major ad networks

#309

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jun 14, 2016, 4:26 PM UTC

kod wrote: post #288

dave_sullivan wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Advertising is a weird business. There's different types of media: print, television, digital (banner ads). Print is dead (has been the increasingly accurate argument for 10 years now), television is expensive and untrackable, and digital is here to save the ad industry because that's where all your customers are and it's very trackable. The value to the advertiser is either direct-action ("click here and buuuuuy!")…

> They're typically sold at a CPM (Cost Per thousand iMpressions) M is for mille, not impressions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_per_mille

[deleted]

Re: VPAID ads destroy performance and are still served by major ad networks

#310

Post by spiderfarmer » Tue, Jun 14, 2016, 4:29 PM UTC

tomjen3 wrote: post #302

spiderfarmer wrote: post #133

What I would like in a new kind of Ad network: - all ads are responsive HTML5 ads - all resources are loaded over HTTPS - ads are based on your content, not on a profile of the user - ads can be requested server side by sending the URL where the ad will be displayed through an API. The response contains the ad code, as well as the expiration date - if you want, you can even download a package with all resources so ad…

As the ultimative target of your ads, I just want ads for products that doesn't suck and that actually cater to my needs and interests - I honestly don't care if they are HTML5 or responsive, though I am not sure I even have a flash player anymore so I suggest HTML5 as the most practical solution. But the problem with ads isn't the technical issue, it is that they suck, horribly, because the products on offer are use…

That's because Google and Facebook don't give a rats ass about who uses their network. The only thing they care about is to mine this advertising bubble for as long as possible.