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Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

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Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#301

Post by LanceH »

jrapdx3 wrote: post #205

It's troubling the way this article presents the issue. Treating chronic pain is an enormously complex problem that clinicians have to deal with, especially as it gets bound up with collateral pitfalls of drug dependence, politics of health care delivery systems and conflicting pressures from patients, government regulators and others. While unethical prescribers (not all are physicians) contribute significantly to r…

I dropped a glass bottle of something restricted. Dr prescribed another one for me, but the insurance company told the pharmacy, "no" and the pharmacy wouldn't dispense after that. Even with me paying the full price.

I'm still a little steamed to think about it. They received both prescriptions from my doctor and made made a medical decision to withhold based upon the word of the insurance company which should not have been a party to the second purchase. I couldn't get the prescription back either, since it was sent directly to the pharmacy.

I have always had a chuckle thinking about what would happen if the government called the medical marijuana supporters claims out and legalized it. I think it would become a pill with none of the high and turn into something quite boring.

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#302

Post by rubicon33 »

vectorjohn wrote: post #244
rubicon33 wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess that's where we disagree. I do consider myself a good judge. If you don't feel you have a sharp rational thought, an ability to consider a wide range of factors, including a dose of fair human compassion, then yes you probably should just help out everyone by default. That's a good default position to take, and one I do commend. Myself on the other hand, I believe in my own ability to be fair in judgement, to…

It's not just arrogant and cruel, it's also logically inconsistent. Everything libertarian leads to an everyone for themselves hellscape. But this in particular would indicate you shouldn't help someone in a car accident because of driving in bad weather, or really driving at all. They took the risk, the risk was well known, so screw them while they bleed to death in the car, right?

"Everything libertarian leads to an everyone for themselves hellscape."

When you take a black and white perspective like this, it's evident you don't have any intention of understanding your fellow man's position. In this way, you yourself are proving logically inconsistent. You have deemed yourself intelligent enough to judge me as being wrong, in my decision to judge others?

So let me get this straight, I am wrong because I believe myself intelligent, rational, thoughtful, and considerate enough, to pass fair judgment on to others. Yet you are not wrong for your rational and thoughtful analysis and subsequent judgment of my belief? That's not just logically inconsistent, it's hypocritical.

Regarding your example:

Again, things are not as black and white as you would like them to be. Each scenario takes a requires a multitude of factors be considered.

Yes, the driver chose to drive in bad weather, which certainly put themselves at risk. I tend to have no problem helping people, who just hurt themselves. But what about the other drivers? Did he put them at risk too? Sure, but those drivers implicitly took the same risk, when they chose to driver in bad weather.

There's an additional consideration, that of the acceptability of someone's behavior. Driving is a socially accepted practice, and one that is sometimes a necessary task. I can extend compassion for them, by assuming the needed to engage in this socially accepted practice of driving, despite the risks.

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#303

Post by rapind »

benjaminmhaley wrote: post #295
krschultz wrote: post #15

I've never taken an illegal drug in my life. I've smoked a cigarette about 5 times. I drank in college but lately I've cut that out of my life as well. I had a security clearance with drug testing requirements for a while and now I just don't like the feeling of a hangover from alcohol or the risk of ingesting random plants/chemicals made by shady people. In short: I'm the most vanilla, square, anti-drug person you c…

The major problem with legalization is the incentive that companies have to promote addiction in our society. Tobacco use is much higher than it would be if it weren't for marketing that promotes tobacco (this is why those companies spend so much on marketing). The same is true for alcohol, prescription medication, illegal drugs, and many non-drug products like food and materials goods. Businesses, legal and illegal,…

Make the substances and use of them legal to sell and use on one's self. However, make it illegal to market / advertise the substance since that is much easier to control just using fines instead of incarceration.

Attach stigma to it, like we have done with cigarettes (though not e-cigs...). The art / film / literary world will still try to make it sexy (rebellious) on occasion, but without full on marketing it's unlikely you'd see widespread use.

Possibly tax it, although I'm not 100% onboard with that, since it would eventually motivate government to lift the marketing restrictions.

For anything that's instantly addictive after one or two uses, perhaps it would be possible and worthwhile to try and create a diluted version that's safe for people to try it out without completely destroying their life.

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#304

Post by jrapdx3 »

LanceH wrote: post #301
jrapdx3 wrote: post #205

It's troubling the way this article presents the issue. Treating chronic pain is an enormously complex problem that clinicians have to deal with, especially as it gets bound up with collateral pitfalls of drug dependence, politics of health care delivery systems and conflicting pressures from patients, government regulators and others. While unethical prescribers (not all are physicians) contribute significantly to r…

I dropped a glass bottle of something restricted. Dr prescribed another one for me, but the insurance company told the pharmacy, "no" and the pharmacy wouldn't dispense after that. Even with me paying the full price. I'm still a little steamed to think about it. They received both prescriptions from my doctor and made made a medical decision to withhold based upon the word of the insurance company which should not ha…

> ... Dr prescribed another one for me, but the insurance company told the pharmacy, "no" and the pharmacy wouldn't dispense after that. ...

This sort of thing happens all the time where medical decisions are "second guessed" by insurers. It may be in the form of payment restriction, or requiring "pre-authorization", just another way to make it difficult to get treatment that costs more than the absolute minimum. I believe such maneuvers are counterproductive, that is, it will wind up costing more if patients don't get what they need to improve their conditions.

Not quite sure why the pharmacy wouldn't fill the Rx for cash. Maybe afraid of regulatory criticism for the "double fill". Of course there are instances where people are frequently "losing" medication supplies and requesting replacement prescriptions. Then we might rightly suspect medication misuse, but if such requests for extra prescriptions are rare, as in your case, it's wrong not to honor it.

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#305

Post by evincarofautumn »

groovy2shoes wrote: post #250
evincarofautumn wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Frankly, most people would rather continue to ban drugs than pay for treatment for people who abuse them. I agree. However, I’m talking not only about treating addiction, but preventing abuse in the first place. The first line of social support is made up of our friends and families. Outreach and education could foster better attitudes toward mental health and addiction, and reduce the systemic effects of stress an…

I admire your courage to speak out about your alcoholism on a public forum. You're not alone. I myself went through a rough period of alcoholism for about 5 years. You're absolutely correct about social support: when I finally kicked the habit (about 3 years ago), I was only able to do it because I switched jobs and made some new friends. The stress of my previous job combined with the loneliness of being isolated fr…

Thank you. I don’t feel like it’s courageous—I think of it as just an annoying illness that I’m dealing with.

Work stress and loneliness were big factors for me as well. I moved across the country with no support network, then went through a difficult breakup. Changing jobs, finding new friends and hobbies, and meeting a new partner who has also dealt with addiction, have all helped enormously.

I am still working on Kitten, and it would be a great help to chat about it, as well as whatever you’re working on. Feel free to email me, or star the repo on GitHub and I’ll include you in the pre-release announcement—soon, hopefully!

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#306

Post by evincarofautumn »

SCAQTony wrote: post #267
evincarofautumn wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m an alcoholic. I’ve cut back on my use significantly, and I’m currently in a period of abstinence. Because alcohol is legal and socially accepted, it’s entirely my responsibility to manage my behaviour and keep my use to non-problematic levels. Not everyone has the social support to make that happen. I think legalisation would be beneficial, as you say, because the criminal justice system does not serve addicts. H…

I am curious, as an admitted alcoholic what is it like during the holidays when Billboards, radio commercial and internet ads play up alcohol as a gift or good time? Do you find alcohol tempting, annoying or are you sanguine about it?

It doesn’t really phase me. Alcohol is always available, and reminding me of that fact doesn’t really make it any harder.

I typically cut loose a bit over the holidays, as I’m seeing friends and attending parties, but I try to remain mindful that it’s not to be an everyday thing, especially because it interferes so much with things I want to do—work, hobbies, and relationships. A useful strategy for me is to create obligations that preclude me from drinking excessively, such as being DD.

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#307

Post by nikdaheratik »

justsaysmthng wrote: post #76
twblalock wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should your drug use, or anyone else's, create obligations for other people to support you, treat you, and help you overcome addiction? The libertarian case for legalizing drugs falls apart if society has to take responsibility for providing support systems as a reaction to the actions of individual drug users. Frankly, most people would rather continue to ban drugs than pay for treatment for people who abuse the…

Because your addiction is also your wife's problem, your parent's problem, your company's problem. Addiction affects more than just the addict. And addicts are in need of help - while it is easy to think that "they like being high, it's their choice", in fact the addicts hate their habit more than anything, yet they can't stop using without external help. Would you help a person with a broken leg ? Why ? Well, that's…

>Because your addiction is also your wife's problem, your parent's problem, your company's problem.

Or your children's problem in the case of one of my close relatives. Addicts do stupid stuff, they don't have any money because they spend all of it on drugs. They then aren't able to pay for things like rent, food, diapers, etc. and turn to family or theft (or both) to deal with that problem. They don't take care of themselves or their dependents because they don't care.

Is some of this exacerbated by the Drug War? Yes. But the other side of the coin is that making drugs cheaper/better and then decriminalizing it won't solve the problems (including depression and other mental issues) that cause people to turn to drugs in the first place. And then from there, they get addicted, drop out, and become a useless drain.

The Drug War doesn't really work, and it causes liberty issues. But it's not the recreational users that are the big social problem with drugs. Its generally the people who are already down in life and then turn into addicts and make things even worse for themselves. And legalizing them won't fix that either.

And then there's the whole issue with people who are in a terrible social/economic situation and sell/move drugs to make money but don't care about the product. They're not going to just start becoming model citizens working in the fancy new MJ dispensary because it's legal now. They'll find something else to do that's probably also illegal.

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#308

Post by over »

nikdaheratik wrote: post #307
justsaysmthng wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because your addiction is also your wife's problem, your parent's problem, your company's problem. Addiction affects more than just the addict. And addicts are in need of help - while it is easy to think that "they like being high, it's their choice", in fact the addicts hate their habit more than anything, yet they can't stop using without external help. Would you help a person with a broken leg ? Why ? Well, that's…

>Because your addiction is also your wife's problem, your parent's problem, your company's problem. Or your children's problem in the case of one of my close relatives. Addicts do stupid stuff, they don't have any money because they spend all of it on drugs. They then aren't able to pay for things like rent, food, diapers, etc. and turn to family or theft (or both) to deal with that problem. They don't take care of t…

In an ideal world, vice (sex, drugs, alcohol, tobacco, gambling, gaming, other?) profits could be funneled into addiction research, education, and treatment. But I don't really have any hope that this will materialize, especially not with private industry calling the shots.

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#309

Post by aminorex »

cbd1984 wrote: post #253
nickff wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is plainly wrong. Free markets allow for testing and approval agencies which do not need to be run by the government. Think of companies like UL which test products before they go to market, and companies like Consumer Reports which test them afterwards. These companies and more can operate to ensure safe goods and services, probably at a much lower cost, and with higher quality than the government. Do not forge…

> This is plainly wrong. Free markets allow for testing and approval agencies which do not need to be run by the government. Yes, they allow multiple competing agencies, each of which approves a different list of products, none of which is obligated in the slightest to reveal who pays for what. Libertarians love to rail about regulatory capture, then they propose a system where companies can literally secretly own pr…

Like Consumer Laboratories?

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#310

Post by aminorex »

rwmj wrote: post #103
drug3737 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Singapore, Japan, Hong Kong, to name a few, are seen as less corrupt than countries like Portugal, France and Spain. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index All the Asian countries I mentioned have more draconian drug laws, less crime and less drug usage rates than the European ones I mentioned (along with the United States). It's easy to dismiss my argument by calling them corrupt and their statis…

China has a big ketamine problem now, with whole villages producing the drug and many addicts. Singapore has a middle-class "ice" (meth) problem. In addition, there was a recent study showing that harsh penalties and rates of drug use are not correlated. http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/oct/30/punitive-drug... If you think that particular countries have unusually low rates of use, then you may be just wrong be…

Ketamine "addicts"? You crack me up.
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