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Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

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Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#301

Post by cowpewter »

tutuca wrote: post #240
jordigh wrote: post #70

I will repeat this one more time, because Eich seems to be missing the point.[1] I don't adblock for privacy, security, or speed. Those are just nice-side effects. I adblock because I do not want to be manipulated into buying things I do not need. I wonder what would happen if, as a society, we said, "enough, no more ads". Would it really be the capitalist apocalypse that the ad industry is trying to make us believe…

Rio stripped street ads because of visual pollution [1]. Quito and some other cities in Ecuador did the same. It didn't impact the economy negatively. It makes the city way more pleasant to walk around. This is specially annoying in "newspaper" sites, where content should be king (I mean, guys, you are already ton of money selling your printed version) and you are welcomed with a full page ad that is not related to t…

Newspapers don't really make money selling their printed versions. That's why the printed version is full of ads in the first place. Advertisers pay for printed newspapers to exist.

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#302

Post by bpodgursky »

Anyone OK with this business model should also be ok with ISPs stripping out ads and replacing them with their own content (remember that?)

On the other hand, if this gets traction (unlikely, admittedly) this may finally force the issue to the courts and get content fiddling declared copyright/TOS violation. Which I'm not sure you all want.

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#304

Post by taurath »

rorykoehler wrote: post #202
BrendanEich wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get your point, and it is a good one. We have a micro payments channel to publishers, frictionless and anonymous, under construction, for folks who want no ads and who will pay. Other users than you will be able to mix and match, too: better and more private ads on sites they don't support, with a revenue share to these users that they can spend on sites they do. We aren't saying "only ads". We do see ads as a nece…

I fall into the camp of blocking all ads because frankly I don't like them. They are visual pollution. I also doubt I would pay for written content (maybe on a very rare occasion I might) if given a micro-payments solution because it doesn't seem worth paying for. I write blog posts from time to time and I do it for pleasure because I enjoy writing about things that interest me and sharing it with others. Honestly I…

Isn't it interesting the level of monetary value we put on most written content on the web (nothing) vs the time we spend reading said valueless content? Is it truly so valueless, or is it only valueless because similar content isn't worth anything? I click on the links I click on because I think they'll have more value to me than the rest of them, but I'm still not to the threshold of reaching any monetary value, only my attention.

I wonder how well a system like reddit gold would work for webpages - if an article was particularly fascinating or insightful or entertaining I could hit a button to give them a dollar or something else (maybe I set a budget of $20 at each month so I don't over or under-pay what I "think" I value media at). If enough people did this, wouldn't this start driving quality back up? Wouldn't it suddenly be transparent the value people see in an article in dollar terms? Who would make the first Million Dollar article?

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#305

Post by lsaferite »

dota_fanatic wrote: post #274
philh wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I want to buy a card, I go to a shop named Cards Galore. I go there because the name makes me think that they sell cards. I know it exists because I pass it every day, and they have their name in big letters on the outside of their shop. Do you consider that I've been manipulated? More to the point, do you find anything unethical in this?

Manipulation, yes. Unethical, maybe? (when you look at its effect in aggregate) Honestly I just want all the advertising (be it physical (signage, billboards, smells, etc) or digital) to get out of my environment. It's almost always noise and it's ugly. There's no reason we couldn't build a hyper-connected system where if I'm looking for something, I can find it. I want socks? Ok, how many sock stores are local? Ok,…

How is a store front with a sign having the store's name manipulation exactly?

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#306

Post by WhatIsDukkha »

If we took the name "Brendan Eich" and replaced it with "Comcast" more of us would find this entirely loathsome.

Indeed it is a very loathsome business model.

People have taken exception to it when ATT and Comcast inject ads into your browsing experience and when Adblock Plus removes and then reinjects them.

Why is this not hijacking the web, extorting publishers with buy into yet another ad network and then trying to leverage this into a future payment network?

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#307

Post by dota_fanatic »

jordigh wrote: post #85
FredFredrickson wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this were attempted, I think we'd have a LOT of talk about what truly is an ad and what isn't. I mean, the web banners and billboards we see every day don't do a lot to actually sell products. But your friend telling you they really love a particular product helps a lot. But in a society where a movement such as you've described was in motion, would both be equally as bad? Are both not manipulative in their own wa…

I'm thinking something like what São Paulo implemented, https://www.adbusters.org/magazine/73/Sao_Paulo_A_City_Witho... Or, perhaps, you only get ads when requested. "I'm in the market for a new refrigerator. Please show me ads for refrigerators." But still, I have a fundamental problem with how all advertising has a slant, and at least a hint of a lie or manipulation. I do not like being lied to or manipulated, but…

The alternative is for our culture to have standards and expect more, and to build the technology to support that level of transparency.

Wouldn't it be nice if you could instantly have a high level analysis of every refrigerator available (new or used) in terms of its objective qualities? With scientific units of measurement and everything? How about information on how the parts were sourced and manufactured?

Unfortunately the majority of the world aren't even close to being in a position to have such standards, expect more, and have the education to evaluate the evidence. The power is in all the wrong places.

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#308

Post by brador »

Joeri wrote: post #265
brador wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The purpose of advertising is to make you buy more than you need. That's an incredibly cynical way of looking at the situation. There is also the purpose of telling you about a product you can buy that might possibly be beneficial to your lifestyle. Through advertising you get to find out about that product faster, something especially important in these days of brisk innovation.

I can't recall ever having learned anything of value from an ad, but YMMV. Still, it's not cynical to say that advertising is meant to make you buy more, because that's why ad space is bought: to boost sales. And it's also not cynical to say that those extra sales would not have occurred without the ad, hence they were for goods people could have done without. Something which can be done without is unneeded, hence, i…

> And it's also not cynical to say that those extra sales would not have occurred without the ad, hence they were for goods people could have done without

Here's the error.

Yes, they were products the target could have done without, but not something they can do without once they have the product.

Consider: The first iPhone. A device that opens possibilities to improve your life that never existed before. You could do without it, but once you have it you can't do without it.

I think you'd have appreciated an ad for the original iPhone if it eventually led to you buying one.

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#309

Post by oldmanjay »

Joeri wrote: post #130
jordigh wrote: post #70

I will repeat this one more time, because Eich seems to be missing the point.[1] I don't adblock for privacy, security, or speed. Those are just nice-side effects. I adblock because I do not want to be manipulated into buying things I do not need. I wonder what would happen if, as a society, we said, "enough, no more ads". Would it really be the capitalist apocalypse that the ad industry is trying to make us believe…

The purpose of advertising is to make you buy more than you need. The economy relies strongly on people buying much more than they need. If you got rid of advertising, it would temporarily destroy the economy, until a new normal is reached, and long term it would save the environment due to heavily reduced consumption. Also, it could bring about the keynesian fantasy where people work only 12 hours a week, because th…

There have been some economies that ran on the idea that most people should only have what they need. At best they seem like dystopias.

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#310

Post by specialist »

jordigh wrote: post #70

I will repeat this one more time, because Eich seems to be missing the point.[1] I don't adblock for privacy, security, or speed. Those are just nice-side effects. I adblock because I do not want to be manipulated into buying things I do not need. I wonder what would happen if, as a society, we said, "enough, no more ads". Would it really be the capitalist apocalypse that the ad industry is trying to make us believe…

I block ads because I can.
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