Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup • Hacker News Board

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#201

Post by xg15 » Wed, Jan 20, 2016, 5:22 PM UTC

BrendanEich wrote: post #141

jordigh wrote: post #70

I will repeat this one more time, because Eich seems to be missing the point.[1] I don't adblock for privacy, security, or speed. Those are just nice-side effects. I adblock because I do not want to be manipulated into buying things I do not need. I wonder what would happen if, as a society, we said, "enough, no more ads". Would it really be the capitalist apocalypse that the ad industry is trying to make us believe…

I get your point, and it is a good one. We have a micro payments channel to publishers, frictionless and anonymous, under construction, for folks who want no ads and who will pay. Other users than you will be able to mix and match, too: better and more private ads on sites they don't support, with a revenue share to these users that they can spend on sites they do. We aren't saying "only ads". We do see ads as a nece…

The micropayments sound good, but I don't understand how those can work in practice:

Site owners have to opt-in to the system obviously, if for no other reason than that they have to receive the payments somehow.

So what will you do if I selected ad-free browsing and am willing to pay but the site doesn't support your system? Refuse to load the page? Do not block ads and override my decision? Block all ads and override the site owners decision?

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#202

Post by rorykoehler » Wed, Jan 20, 2016, 5:22 PM UTC

BrendanEich wrote: post #141

jordigh wrote: post #70

I will repeat this one more time, because Eich seems to be missing the point.[1] I don't adblock for privacy, security, or speed. Those are just nice-side effects. I adblock because I do not want to be manipulated into buying things I do not need. I wonder what would happen if, as a society, we said, "enough, no more ads". Would it really be the capitalist apocalypse that the ad industry is trying to make us believe…

I get your point, and it is a good one. We have a micro payments channel to publishers, frictionless and anonymous, under construction, for folks who want no ads and who will pay. Other users than you will be able to mix and match, too: better and more private ads on sites they don't support, with a revenue share to these users that they can spend on sites they do. We aren't saying "only ads". We do see ads as a nece…

I fall into the camp of blocking all ads because frankly I don't like them. They are visual pollution. I also doubt I would pay for written content (maybe on a very rare occasion I might) if given a micro-payments solution because it doesn't seem worth paying for. I write blog posts from time to time and I do it for pleasure because I enjoy writing about things that interest me and sharing it with others. Honestly I don't feel any compulsion to fund any of the media whose links bombard my social media daily. Even some of the good stuff on this site I wouldn't feel compelled to pay for because truly it isn't transformative and I would probably be better off not reading it and doing something productive instead.

Stuff I do pay for: educational content (books, courses etc), Spotify, Netflix.

You're obviously much more deeply invested in this and have done the maths. I am curious, what percentage of web users do you calculate will use the micro-payments, if it was a seamless perfectly executed experience? How much revenue do you think it will generate and will it be enough to disrupt web-ads?

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#203

Post by krupan » Wed, Jan 20, 2016, 5:22 PM UTC

jordigh wrote: post #70

I will repeat this one more time, because Eich seems to be missing the point.[1] I don't adblock for privacy, security, or speed. Those are just nice-side effects. I adblock because I do not want to be manipulated into buying things I do not need. I wonder what would happen if, as a society, we said, "enough, no more ads". Would it really be the capitalist apocalypse that the ad industry is trying to make us believe…

I remember Google's unobtrusive text-only ads. Those were often actually helpful to me, letting me know of products or services that I might actually be interested in that I didn't otherwise know about. If all adds were like that plus fast-loading and not invasive of privacy or security, I'd be just fine with them.

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#204

Post by philh » Wed, Jan 20, 2016, 5:22 PM UTC

jordigh wrote: post #97

logingone wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't adblock for privacy, security, or speed. Those are just nice-side effects. I adblock because I do not want to be manipulated into buying things I do not need. Interesting. I'm the opposite. I've yet to encounter an ad that has a hope in hell of manipulating me at all. I couldn't be more dismissive of them. And if I encounter one too often my dislike of the company starts to grow. "It's show time, and you've b…

> I've yet to encounter an ad that has a hope in hell of manipulating me at all. If you know what "just do it", "the happiest place on Earth", "think different", or "the world's most advanced operating system" refer to, you've already been manipulated. A lot of ads are just about making sure you have a particular brand in mind and you're keenly aware of that brand's existence. Then, when time comes around to actually…

When I want to buy a card, I go to a shop named Cards Galore. I go there because the name makes me think that they sell cards. I know it exists because I pass it every day, and they have their name in big letters on the outside of their shop.

Do you consider that I've been manipulated? More to the point, do you find anything unethical in this?

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#205

Post by VLM » Wed, Jan 20, 2016, 5:22 PM UTC

Klathmon wrote: post #79

rockdoe wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you just described why Mozilla was pushing for Tracking Protection (blocking only "bad" ads) and didn't do Brave.

even widespread Tracking Protection isn't the answer IMO. I personally want to be tracked on some things. I want ads that are relevant to me instead of ads that cater to the lowest common denominator. I want websites to be able to view my usage and cater to my wants/needs without me having to spend time trying to fill out surveys on how i use their service (and probably remember things wrong), I want automated recomm…

I would theorize what you're observing is incompetent push is indistinguishable from incompetent pull, at least WRT resulting annoyance level.

Also a lot of markets are a confuse-opoly. Go ahead, help me out and find the technically best tire for peak all season performance (not worried about longest lasting tread, not worried about cost, not worried about mileage, just best all weather performance on a skidpad). Doesn't matter what car I have or what you search for. The market is dead, pure confuse-opoly, may as well give up and use astrology. I'm a Pisces if that helps more than knowing what model car I have. Likewise look at pre-smartphone cell phone market. You can not have ads worth anything if the underlying market is pure nonsense BS, so vast segments of the economy will have to be categorically excluded, and they have advertising money to spend... Some of the biggest marketing budgets are in the least healthy markets...

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#206

Post by metafunctor » Wed, Jan 20, 2016, 5:22 PM UTC

Is anyone else concerned about the possibility that if ad blocking on the web becomes widespread enough, we will end up with more ads baked into the content itself? Native advertising, ads burned into images, ads burned in the middle of videos?

Thinking selfishly, I would much prefer the status quo, where I can block most ads, but the majority of consumers don't do it. Current ad blocking tech is fine, I'm afraid this could become an arms race.

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#207

Post by chris_wot » Wed, Jan 20, 2016, 5:23 PM UTC

zimpenfish wrote: post #175

logingone wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That works both ways. In the UK, presumably elsewhere too, there are long running themed adverts - they drive me nuts on the occasions that I don't hit the mute button soon enough. Brits will know the mongooses, and the two marathon runners, supposedly humorous - incessant, for years on end. Never, ever will I use those services.

The mongooses? Or the meerkats? (I can't think of any mongoose adverts.)

Possibly a branding fail, at least for the parent commentator :-)

I actually quite like the Meerkats.

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#208

Post by rockdoe » Wed, Jan 20, 2016, 5:23 PM UTC

akkartik wrote: post #177

BrendanEich wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get your point, and it is a good one. We have a micro payments channel to publishers, frictionless and anonymous, under construction, for folks who want no ads and who will pay. Other users than you will be able to mix and match, too: better and more private ads on sites they don't support, with a revenue share to these users that they can spend on sites they do. We aren't saying "only ads". We do see ads as a nece…

Just to add the opposing viewpoint: after watching browsers get incredibly sluggish over the past year on up-to-date hardware (desktop and mobile), I absolutely care about speed and bandwidth consumption[1]. So Brave's 'manifesto' absolutely resonates. Very happy to see the principal agent problem on the web stated so clearly. I've been calling it the tragedy of the commons in comments here and elsewhere. Thanks! [1]…

Is it the browsers that are getting slower, or the websites that you visit?

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#209

Post by akkartik » Wed, Jan 20, 2016, 5:23 PM UTC

chippy wrote: post #191

akkartik wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to add the opposing viewpoint: after watching browsers get incredibly sluggish over the past year on up-to-date hardware (desktop and mobile), I absolutely care about speed and bandwidth consumption[1]. So Brave's 'manifesto' absolutely resonates. Very happy to see the principal agent problem on the web stated so clearly. I've been calling it the tragedy of the commons in comments here and elsewhere. Thanks! [1]…

>tragedy of the commons I suspect it's also due to developers getting and using the latest hardware (i.e. top range Mac Book Pros) and as long as it works on their machine, with all bells and whistles, they don't care about any of their users with slower machines. Same with phones - older phones are out of date because the updated apps get bloated and bloated for them but are not bloated for the developers.

Yeah. It almost makes me hanker for the bad old days when we had to support IE6. The pendulum's swung too far in the other direction when my phone has trouble when it's less than 2 years old.

Re: Brave: Brendan Eich's clean-ads browser startup

#210

Post by jhawins » Wed, Jan 20, 2016, 5:24 PM UTC

linksbro wrote: post #76

vladikoff wrote: post #54

From a quick glance: 1) Desktop browser is an electron app with ad tracking injected into your app via http://cdn.brave.com/ (via https://sonobi.com/welcome/index.php which promises "EFFECTIVELY PLAN AND SOURCE MARKETING OPPORTUNITIES WITH QUALITY AND VIEWABILITY FROM PREMIUM PUBLISHERS" 2) iOS browser is a fork of Firefox iOS - https://github.com/mozilla/firefox-ios 3) Android browser is a fork of https://play.googl…

Looks like Eich is on the Advisory Board of sonobi. [1] [1] https://sonobi.com/welcome/company.php Edit: Removed comments about the diversity of sonobi, as they're not really relevant to the discussion.

They're just trying to make more money... Go figure!