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The dark side of Dubai

independent.co.uk

31–40 of 72 posts

Re: The dark side of Dubai

#31

Why anyone would relocate to a country living in the dark ages with Medieval laws is beyond me. Commit adultry? Go to prison. Eat a poppy-seed bagel in another airport on your way to Dubai and leave a seed on your shirt? Same thing. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7234786.stm

Indeed, and why would Europe want to relocate people from such countries into its midst?

People with a Medieval world view, with Medieval morals and conceptions of Right & Wrong that they insist are not only applicable in 2009, but the only true way.

We've got lots of them all over Europe, and it's starting to show.

Re: The dark side of Dubai

#32
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't just that they were participating in a bubble. As this article makes clear, they were participating in a system built on slavery and oppression.

While I certainly would not want to live/work in Dubai, its very difficult to _not_ participate in a system built on slavery/oppression. Have you ever been to the factory cities in Asia where a good bit of your things are made? Have you bought a tank of gas and thought about what percent of your money is going to oppressive regimes? If you're a U.S. citizen, do you pay taxes which support a global military hegemony (…

Everyone participates in this, some more than others, some knowingly and most people, unknowingly. I remember when I was a kid, there was a movement to boycott crackers (during diwali time) in India, as kids were employed by the industry. Lots of people, including me, stopped buying crackers. It did have some effect, but I doubt how much.

Ultimately, it is left to the each individual I guess. If only each one of us decide not to buy products of slave labor, not to support war etc, world would be a better place in an instant.

Re: The dark side of Dubai

#33
post #19

I've spent a bit of time in Dubai. It's not quite what the author makes it out to be. I've heard about the abuses - there are some and it's horrible - but it's not indicative of the way most people are running their businesses in Dubai. A mentor of mine from England headed up a project management firm there. The workers under him made 20-40 times what they could make back home in South Asia, in places where the malno…

Sorry. But after reading that article, I just don't believe your personal experience is indicative of what's going on in Dubai. You're the one who sounds out of touch. Have you even gone to interview the workers slaving away to do construction on Dubai's skyscrapers as the author of this article did? Have you seen where they live? Did you interview any of the people who had their passports taken away? This was a thro…

> Sorry. But after reading that article, I just don't believe your personal experience is indicative of what's going on in Dubai. You're the one who sounds out of touch.

I want to put this down in a way to further the conversation. "But after reading that article, I just don't believe..." - that statement. You read a news article - I've read many too - and you feel educated enough to make a judgment on my personal experiences including very upper class people, Western skilled workers, and some poor people who were maids, sanitation people, etc. After reading a news article, you feel confident to make a judgment that someone else's firsthand experiences are not indicative of how things actually are, and that the person is out of touch.

> There's so much in this article you seem to dismiss with a wave of the hand by saying other countries have their problems too.

No. That's not it at all.

I don't think people realize how bad poverty is. So when you read that someone worked 12 hours in terrible conditions for $800/month, that sounds incredibly horrible. But people don't realize that when a meal at a cafe costs 22 cents, a bus ride costs 11 cents, a giant bag of rice costs less than a dollar - well, then $800 goes a long way. I've spent time in third world countries. Most people who get righteous when a story likes this comes out, haven't. $800 goes a long way in the third world.

Some people pulled themselves out of poverty by working in Dubai. I'm not talking about the up and up people. Some poor people pulled themselves out of poverty in Dubai. Bad things also happened there, but good things happened too. That doesn't dismiss some terrible things, but the article ignores some people who literally turned their lives around there.

Re: The dark side of Dubai

#34
While these are truly horrible stories, it has to be noted that you cannot just explain them with some racist reference to arabs. This is just the logical conclusion of certain free market policies without regard for human rights and human well being.

In fact for every horrible story you read about in this article there is a politician in the US trying to bring that story to America. If you enact tort reform, reform the bankruptcy laws, remove worker protections and minimum wage laws, and remove environmental regulations, you will get exactly the same type of outcome as you are getting in Dubai.

Re: The dark side of Dubai

#36
This is no surprise. If you build a whole investment empire based solely on the value of housing, those cheap bricks you build turn against you one day.

No social investments, no technology, just plain luxury and housing. Have you seen that artificial palm drawn on the sea? For me, that symbolizes how artificial things were in Dubai, and good old karma gave them what they deserved.

Re: The dark side of Dubai

#37

Why anyone would relocate to a country living in the dark ages with Medieval laws is beyond me. Commit adultry? Go to prison. Eat a poppy-seed bagel in another airport on your way to Dubai and leave a seed on your shirt? Same thing. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7234786.stm

Incidentally, this is what happens when the dark ages come to Europe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nqxP2bpF7I http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iQyXXsBBQ0&feature=relat...

Re: The dark side of Dubai

#38
post #19

I've spent a bit of time in Dubai. It's not quite what the author makes it out to be. I've heard about the abuses - there are some and it's horrible - but it's not indicative of the way most people are running their businesses in Dubai. A mentor of mine from England headed up a project management firm there. The workers under him made 20-40 times what they could make back home in South Asia, in places where the malno…

Sorry. But after reading that article, I just don't believe your personal experience is indicative of what's going on in Dubai. You're the one who sounds out of touch. Have you even gone to interview the workers slaving away to do construction on Dubai's skyscrapers as the author of this article did? Have you seen where they live? Did you interview any of the people who had their passports taken away? This was a thro…

We already have the article, gnosis. This person has actual experience. His comments add to the discussion, over and above the article. No matter what I think of Dubai or the journalism in this article (respectively: BAD and GOOD, FWIW), you're not contributing much here.

Re: The dark side of Dubai

#39
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry. But after reading that article, I just don't believe your personal experience is indicative of what's going on in Dubai. You're the one who sounds out of touch. Have you even gone to interview the workers slaving away to do construction on Dubai's skyscrapers as the author of this article did? Have you seen where they live? Did you interview any of the people who had their passports taken away? This was a thro…

> Sorry. But after reading that article, I just don't believe your personal experience is indicative of what's going on in Dubai. You're the one who sounds out of touch. I want to put this down in a way to further the conversation. "But after reading that article, I just don't believe..." - that statement. You read a news article - I've read many too - and you feel educated enough to make a judgment on my personal ex…

  > > Sorry. But after reading that article, I just don't believe your
  > > personal experience is  indicative of what's going  on in Dubai.
  > > You're the one who sounds out of touch.
  >
  > I want to put this down in a way to further the conversation. "But
  > after  reading  that article,  I  just  don't believe..."  -  that
  > statement. You read a news article -  I've read many too - and you
  > feel educated enough to make a judgment on my personal experiences
  > including very  upper class  people, Western skilled  workers, and
  > some poor  people who  were maids,  sanitation people,  etc. After
  > reading a news article, you feel confident to make a judgment that
  > someone  else's firsthand  experiences are  not indicative  of how
  > things actually are, and that the person is out of touch.
It was more a judgement of your description of your personal experience than the experience itself. Clearly, no one has access to your personal experience, so they can't judge it directly. But we can judge what you tell us (compared to what the author of "The dark side of Dubai" article tells about his personal experience).

  > > Have you  even gone to  interview the  workers slaving away  to do
  > > construction on Dubai's skyscrapers as  the author of this article
  > > did?
  >
  > Yes.
  >
  > > Have you seen where they live?
  >
  > Yes.
Then why didn't you mention it? Why did you start going off about how good project managers and stewardeses have it in Dubai instead of talking about the people interviewed in the article: the workers slaving away building the skyscrapers and the people who've had their passports taken away? Do you dispute the accuracy of what the author of the article has written about them?

  > I  don't think  people realize  how bad  poverty is.  So when  you
  > read  that someone  worked  12 hours  in  terrible conditions  for
  > $800/month,  that sounds  incredibly  horrible.  But people  don't
  > realize that  when a meal  at a cafe costs  11 cents, $800  goes a
  > long way.  I've spent time  in third world countries.  Most people
  > who get righteous when a story likes this comes out, haven't. $800
  > goes a long way in the third world.
First, the article mentioned people were making £90 ($147) a month, not $800 a month. Second, Dubai is not a third world country, so I really doubt the workers are spending 11 cents a meal. According to http://www.expatforum.com/articles/cost-of-living/cost-of-li...

"An individual expatriate will spend around 500 euro on food and other grocery items every month. Costs of food products are especially high... Water is generally expensive all across the country... Dubai relies mostly on imported food and drinks, which explains why they are also more expensive."

The monthly cost of food of 500 Euro is about $750, more than 5 times the monthly wage mentioned in the article. Of course, the typical slave worker probably isn't going to be eating food that's as expensive as that of your typical Western expat, but I doubt they'd survive on $10 of food a month, which is what three 11 cent meals a day totaled over a month would amount to.

Then there's the debt that the slave workers get in to to just have the opportunity to work in Dubai. The article quotes it as £2,300 ($3,772), which would take 25 months to work off at the $147 per month salary, if we don't count the cost of living in Dubai (which would make repaying the debt even harder).

Finally, there are the dangerous work conditions, physical violence, and the non-payment and delay of salaries that the article mentions, which would literally put the workers' lives in jeopardy. That doesn't exactly sound like the opportunity of a lifetime, even for someone coming from the third world.

  > Some people pulled themselves out  of poverty by working in Dubai.
  > I'm  not talking  about the  up and  up people.  Some poor  people
  > pulled  themselves  out  of  poverty in  Dubai.  Bad  things  also
  > happened there, but good things happened too. That doesn't dismiss
  > some  terrible things,  but the  article ignores  some people  who
  > literally turned their lives around there.
There will always be exceptional people who can overcome some of the worst adversities. This article wasn't about them. That's true. The author chose to mostly focus on the less exceptional, and more representative people in Dubai, and nothing you've said has proven the author of this article did anything less than a stellar job at researching and describing his chosen subject.

Re: The dark side of Dubai

#40
post #38
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry. But after reading that article, I just don't believe your personal experience is indicative of what's going on in Dubai. You're the one who sounds out of touch. Have you even gone to interview the workers slaving away to do construction on Dubai's skyscrapers as the author of this article did? Have you seen where they live? Did you interview any of the people who had their passports taken away? This was a thro…

We already have the article, gnosis. This person has actual experience. His comments add to the discussion, over and above the article. No matter what I think of Dubai or the journalism in this article (respectively: BAD and GOOD, FWIW), you're not contributing much here.

And what did you just contribute?
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