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The dark side of Dubai

independent.co.uk

11–20 of 72 posts

Re: The dark side of Dubai

#11

Why anyone would relocate to a country living in the dark ages with Medieval laws is beyond me. Commit adultry? Go to prison. Eat a poppy-seed bagel in another airport on your way to Dubai and leave a seed on your shirt? Same thing. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7234786.stm

Fuck Dubai. No flashy tourist attraction is worth that kind of risk.

Re: The dark side of Dubai

#12
post #9
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although your comment is extreme, many people moved there to make lots of money and live like kings. Which they did. Edit: Not sure why I'm being downmodded; all I did was answer the parent's question.

They moved to Dubai to participate (willingly or unwillingly) in a bubble, basically.

It wasn't just that they were participating in a bubble. As this article makes clear, they were participating in a system built on slavery and oppression.

Re: The dark side of Dubai

#13
I've spent a bit of time in Dubai. It's not quite what the author makes it out to be.

I've heard about the abuses - there are some and it's horrible - but it's not indicative of the way most people are running their businesses in Dubai.

A mentor of mine from England headed up a project management firm there. The workers under him made 20-40 times what they could make back home in South Asia, in places where the malnourishment/literally-starving-to-death rate is sometimes 30%.

An acquaintance of mine who worked in Dubai had a Chinese girlfriend who was a stewardess on Emirates Airlines. Emirates is pretty incredible in that they pay the same amounts to their staff regardless of country of origin - almost all airlines and cruiselines pay much less to people from China, the Philippines, etc, than they would to someone from France or Australia. Emirates pays everyone the same. The acquaintence's Chinese girlfriend bought one house every couple months back in her home province in China on her wages. Her family was becoming incredibly wealthy.

A company taking someone's passport and changing their contract is really horrible fraud, a horrific crime. But that's an indictment of the whole society - this kind of nonsense happens in the West too. Take South Korea and the United States - a common story is a girl gets promised high paid waitressing/hostessing job, gets sold into slavery. This is a terrible thing, and should be stopped - but does that mean that United States is running on slave labor? No. A few bad people is not an indictment of an entire society.

For a lot of very poor people, Dubai helped pull their families out of poverty. The did some amazing things there. Those things won't be mentioned in a piece like this. People who would be living on subsistence farming in China build houses and manage property after working in Dubai. People from Sri Lanka, India, and Eastern Europe can support their whole families and save money after working there for a couple years, in places where there is no opportunity and everyone is literally starving to death.

The author doesn't care about the good. The opinion piece was written before doing any research or interviews, the research and interviews were set to tell the story. There's some bad stuff there? Oh yeah, absolutely. There's bad stuff in the USA too. And England. And everywhere. There's also a hell of a lot of good that's happening there, that wasn't mentioned.

Re: The dark side of Dubai

#14
post #10
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They moved to Dubai to participate (willingly or unwillingly) in a bubble, basically.

Is that a bad thing (on a per-person level)? Again, many people made out great.

Well I guess that comes down to a moral choice.

Would you be okay with "making out great" and becoming rich if it meant that other people had to work in 130 degree heat for 18 hours a day in order to build the buildings you live and work in, and had their wages withheld and passport confiscated by their employer?

Would you think that you had made a bad choice?

Re: The dark side of Dubai

#15

I've spent a bit of time in Dubai. It's not quite what the author makes it out to be. I've heard about the abuses - there are some and it's horrible - but it's not indicative of the way most people are running their businesses in Dubai. A mentor of mine from England headed up a project management firm there. The workers under him made 20-40 times what they could make back home in South Asia, in places where the malno…

The opinion piece was written before doing any research or interviews, the research and interviews were set to tell the story.

I'm not sure how you can make this claim. Do you have knowledge of the chronology of the author's events as to when she wrote the article and when she performed the numerous interviews - with both sides - in the article?

The author doesn't care about the good.

I think that the author's point is that there is no good if the country/economy/system is built on the back of what amounts to slavery and fraud. That it doesn't matter how much "good" has been done if these abuses took place as a part of manufacturing the "good".

Re: The dark side of Dubai

#17
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that a bad thing (on a per-person level)? Again, many people made out great.

Well I guess that comes down to a moral choice. Would you be okay with "making out great" and becoming rich if it meant that other people had to work in 130 degree heat for 18 hours a day in order to build the buildings you live and work in, and had their wages withheld and passport confiscated by their employer? Would you think that you had made a bad choice?

That is exactly the question I am asking. If someone gave you (and I don't mean you in particular) the chance to make all this money with minimal effort on your part, are you so sure you'd turn it down?

To answer this question regarding myself, I don't know. For example, I wear clothes and shoes that are obviously made using horrible labour in third-world countries. Also, what are the people who already live there supposed to do? Halt their lives and livelihoods and move out?

All I'm calling for with my comments is more restraint when it comes to the 'holier than thou' comments. It's too easy to express casual outrage and condemnation on the internet.

Re: The dark side of Dubai

#18

I've spent a bit of time in Dubai. It's not quite what the author makes it out to be. I've heard about the abuses - there are some and it's horrible - but it's not indicative of the way most people are running their businesses in Dubai. A mentor of mine from England headed up a project management firm there. The workers under him made 20-40 times what they could make back home in South Asia, in places where the malno…

The opinion piece was written before doing any research or interviews, the research and interviews were set to tell the story. I'm not sure how you can make this claim. Do you have knowledge of the chronology of the author's events as to when she wrote the article and when she performed the numerous interviews - with both sides - in the article? The author doesn't care about the good. I think that the author's point…

> I think that the author's point is that there is no good if the country/economy/system is built on the back of what amounts to slavery and fraud.

I don't mean the big buildings - I mean the author doesn't mention all the good that happened for a lot of workers that came to Dubai with no other options, were treated relatively did well, did hard work but were paid extremely well for it, and went from being poor to being upper middle class in their home countries after their tenure was over.

> That it doesn't matter how much "good" has been done if these abuses took place as a part of manufacturing the "good".

The author didn't make an attempt to get the average wages, or how the process works on average, or how widespread any abuses are. She didn't publish anyone's account who came out well in Dubai, and there's many. She didn't write about the people who, by working in Dubai for a couple years, made enough to live very well in their home countries, buy property, send their kids to good schools, and get their families out of poverty. That happened too. That's the good I was referring to.

Re: The dark side of Dubai

#19

I've spent a bit of time in Dubai. It's not quite what the author makes it out to be. I've heard about the abuses - there are some and it's horrible - but it's not indicative of the way most people are running their businesses in Dubai. A mentor of mine from England headed up a project management firm there. The workers under him made 20-40 times what they could make back home in South Asia, in places where the malno…

Sorry. But after reading that article, I just don't believe your personal experience is indicative of what's going on in Dubai. You're the one who sounds out of touch.

Have you even gone to interview the workers slaving away to do construction on Dubai's skyscrapers as the author of this article did? Have you seen where they live? Did you interview any of the people who had their passports taken away?

This was a throughly researched article, while your experience amounts to just your friend's project management firm and an acquaintance's girlfriend. Maybe project managers have it good in Dubai, but how does their experience compare to the rest of Dubai's workforce?

And what about the water quality problems they're having after dumping their sewage in the sea? What about the lack of freedom of speech addressed in the article? Or the fact that being gay in Dubai is illegal? Or the threats of Islamic radicalism? Or the impact of the falling oil prices and Dubai's debt economy?

There's so much in this article you seem to dismiss with a wave of the hand by saying other countries have their problems too. They certainly do, but that doesn't excuse or explain what's going on in Dubai.

Re: The dark side of Dubai

#20
post #12
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They moved to Dubai to participate (willingly or unwillingly) in a bubble, basically.

It wasn't just that they were participating in a bubble. As this article makes clear, they were participating in a system built on slavery and oppression.

While I certainly would not want to live/work in Dubai, its very difficult to _not_ participate in a system built on slavery/oppression. Have you ever been to the factory cities in Asia where a good bit of your things are made? Have you bought a tank of gas and thought about what percent of your money is going to oppressive regimes? If you're a U.S. citizen, do you pay taxes which support a global military hegemony (do you know how may have died in Iraq over the last 8 years)?

Its real hard to not be a part of the system. I do understand your point and it does feel better to be further removed from the bad behavior. But most of us are participants.

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