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The Agency: An army of well-paid “trolls” in St. Petersburg

nytimes.com

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Re: The Agency: An army of well-paid “trolls” in St. Petersburg

#31

Post by lgieron »

josefresco wrote: post #25
hackuser wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that mainly produces pro-Putin propaganda, in both English and Russian. And also seems to be testing disinformation campaigns in the US, such as spreading panic about (fake) disasters.

I feel like this (testing disinformation campaigns within the US) wasn't addressed fully and is the most significant aspect of the "trolling" operations. Not many care if Russians are spreading lies to Russians about Putin, but attempting to cause panic in the US by faking a disaster is the most dangerous aspect of this practice.

It's also spreading lies about Russians to non-Russians. See for example The Guardian online forums - these guys dominate conversations which have something do to with Putin's policies (say the Crimea situation etc).

Re: The Agency: An army of well-paid “trolls” in St. Petersburg

#32

Post by hackuser »

josefresco wrote: post #25
hackuser wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that mainly produces pro-Putin propaganda, in both English and Russian. And also seems to be testing disinformation campaigns in the US, such as spreading panic about (fake) disasters.

I feel like this (testing disinformation campaigns within the US) wasn't addressed fully and is the most significant aspect of the "trolling" operations. Not many care if Russians are spreading lies to Russians about Putin, but attempting to cause panic in the US by faking a disaster is the most dangerous aspect of this practice.

Agreed. Why would they be doing that?

All I can think is that psychological operations always have been part of war (and conflicts short of war), and the obvious place to conduct them in 2015 is not on leaflets dropped from airplanes, but on the Internet. I don't think it's conspiratorial to expect that nations are developing capabilities and training.

Re: The Agency: An army of well-paid “trolls” in St. Petersburg

#33

Post by maxerickson »

Retric wrote: post #27
astral303 wrote: post #26

My dad claims that the level of brainwashing in Russia far far exceeds that of the Soviet regime, and the propaganda is by far worse (and worse than WWII Germany he says). Of course statements like that evoke Godwin's law and a hard to swallow. However, my dad grew up in Soviet Russia and trained troops on the use of artillery equipment during the Soviet Afghanistan conflict. He's been around the block and has seen f…

The rest of the world has also gotten much better at propaganda. Listing to older broadcasts can almost seem laughable in comparison. EX: Reefer madness vs. modern anti-smoking campaigns. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reefer_Madness http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/06/24/cdc-smo... I find it deeply concerning how easily a modern state can alter how its population thinks. Outright lies are a lot easier to…

Some of the change has just come from the entertainment industry. As it has gotten used to working in film/video it has discarded more and more elements of the stage (styling it as a stage show is at least partly why something like Reefer Madness was so silly).

Re: The Agency: An army of well-paid “trolls” in St. Petersburg

#34

Post by criley2 »

scarmig wrote: post #18
meesterdude wrote: post #11

> Volodin installed in his office a custom-designed computer terminal loaded with a system called Prism, which monitored public sentiment online using 60 million sources Oh look, they've got prism too! > According to the website of its manufacturer, Prism “actively tracks the social media activities that result in increased social tension, disorderly conduct, protest sentiments and extremism.” Well that's comforting.…

I'm not sure if you'd agree with it or not, but I'd want to emphasize something: this behavior is not limited to foreign governments that have antithetical interests to the USA. Even publicly, the CIA recognizes that it has teams of employees working on social media to push people (particularly in the Middle East) to support positions more consistent with American interests. And it'd surely be pretty damn profitable…

Israel commands a small army of these as well, it's almost comical to see them appearing in social media and comment sections, but I have no doubt they're effective.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/08/14/israel-s...

Re: The Agency: An army of well-paid “trolls” in St. Petersburg

#35

Post by thomaskcr »

aselzer wrote: post #29
ISL wrote: post #21

This sort of thing has happened recently on HN, where trolls derailed the conversation so badly that it was flagged into oblivion. (dang brought it back to life after an email appeal). https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9570202 What's the right way for a community to permit free and welcoming discourse and simultaneously blunt the ability of malicious actors intent on spreading disinformation? It's a hard problem.

You are certain that trolls derailed the conversation? It could just as well be one person stating his opinions. His opinions are controversal, and therefore they generate lots of responses (derailing) and he is downvoted because they go against what most people here believe. Doesn't quite seem like an army of professional "trolls" manipulating the discussion (If he is a troll, he would probably have presented his st…

Shills and astroturfers are the future witches of the internet. I think the people concerned about these people will do more to derail conversation than the actual people being paid. On reddit it's really bad, many of them believe you literally can't have certain opinions without being paid to have them. Because of that, they literally won't even entertain opinions different from their own as sincere.

It really shouldn't matter if someone is paid to have an opinion -- if your own opinion is crappy enough that your only argument is that someone is being paid, then maybe they're doing you a favor by challenging your belief. Disinformation only works if you're too lazy to research the reality.

You'll never be able to confirm someone is a shill or whatever or not, so I don't understand why people obsess over it so much in comment sections. Just legitimately defend your view if it's that obvious.

Re: The Agency: An army of well-paid “trolls” in St. Petersburg

#36

Post by serg_chernata »

astral303 wrote: post #26

My dad claims that the level of brainwashing in Russia far far exceeds that of the Soviet regime, and the propaganda is by far worse (and worse than WWII Germany he says). Of course statements like that evoke Godwin's law and a hard to swallow. However, my dad grew up in Soviet Russia and trained troops on the use of artillery equipment during the Soviet Afghanistan conflict. He's been around the block and has seen f…

I was born and raised in Ukraine till I turned 14. Still have most of my family there and they visit regularly. They were present during most of the revolution and I can confirm nothing but love and pride to be Ukrainian. All that talk about Ukrainian nazi is garbage. Yes, we aren't perfect and we may have difficulties bringing order but it was all done with good intentions at heart. Most recent revolutions, including the Orange revolution, are some of the most peaceful times in Ukraine. People are truly united, crime rates drop dramatically, people make food and bring it to feed others for free. Both of my grandparents attended all of these events. I've never been more proud, I hope peace and order can be restored without Russia's involvement.

Re: The Agency: An army of well-paid “trolls” in St. Petersburg

#37

Post by vasilipupkin »

astral303 wrote: post #26

My dad claims that the level of brainwashing in Russia far far exceeds that of the Soviet regime, and the propaganda is by far worse (and worse than WWII Germany he says). Of course statements like that evoke Godwin's law and a hard to swallow. However, my dad grew up in Soviet Russia and trained troops on the use of artillery equipment during the Soviet Afghanistan conflict. He's been around the block and has seen f…

It has exceeded the level of the Soviet Regime during its later years because it's quite effective. Soviet Regime was falling apart so in the last few years of it everybody paid lip service to propaganda, but nobody really believed it because it was quite obvious that the system was falling apart. This is not really the case now in Russia. Yet

Re: The Agency: An army of well-paid “trolls” in St. Petersburg

#38

Post by pessimizer »

aselzer wrote: post #29
ISL wrote: post #21

This sort of thing has happened recently on HN, where trolls derailed the conversation so badly that it was flagged into oblivion. (dang brought it back to life after an email appeal). https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9570202 What's the right way for a community to permit free and welcoming discourse and simultaneously blunt the ability of malicious actors intent on spreading disinformation? It's a hard problem.

You are certain that trolls derailed the conversation? It could just as well be one person stating his opinions. His opinions are controversal, and therefore they generate lots of responses (derailing) and he is downvoted because they go against what most people here believe. Doesn't quite seem like an army of professional "trolls" manipulating the discussion (If he is a troll, he would probably have presented his st…

For some reason (which I'm not sure isn't a reasonable amount of paranoia based on hard-won experience under the regime that Putin is running) some people believe that anyone who expresses the Western minority view that the conflict over Crimea isn't entirely Putin's fault, and that its population trying to cling to Russia isn't the worst, least understandable thing in the world is being paid by the Russian government. I've been accused myself.

I'm a black American from Chicago, and that's honestly a majority sentiment amongst friends and family, for what it's worth.

Putin is terrible for so many other reasons than this struggle between duelling right-wing nationalists.

Re: The Agency: An army of well-paid “trolls” in St. Petersburg

#39

Post by mike_hearn »

ISL wrote: post #21

This sort of thing has happened recently on HN, where trolls derailed the conversation so badly that it was flagged into oblivion. (dang brought it back to life after an email appeal). https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9570202 What's the right way for a community to permit free and welcoming discourse and simultaneously blunt the ability of malicious actors intent on spreading disinformation? It's a hard problem.

The internet has always been full of delusional people with extreme opinions untroubled by logic or argument.

I wouldn't worry too much - good moderation systems were built to handle these from the start. The places where paid trolls are likely to be most effective are also the places where you see the largest quantity of ridiculous posts from ordinary people. I'm thinking newspaper comment sections here, but Twitter might count too.

Whether someone is posting nonsense because they're paid or just because they can't sleep (https://xkcd.com/386/) the response to it is the same: robust forum software combined with people who point out their fallacies.

Re: The Agency: An army of well-paid “trolls” in St. Petersburg

#40

Post by im3w1l »

thomaskcr wrote: post #35
aselzer wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are certain that trolls derailed the conversation? It could just as well be one person stating his opinions. His opinions are controversal, and therefore they generate lots of responses (derailing) and he is downvoted because they go against what most people here believe. Doesn't quite seem like an army of professional "trolls" manipulating the discussion (If he is a troll, he would probably have presented his st…

Shills and astroturfers are the future witches of the internet. I think the people concerned about these people will do more to derail conversation than the actual people being paid. On reddit it's really bad, many of them believe you literally can't have certain opinions without being paid to have them. Because of that, they literally won't even entertain opinions different from their own as sincere. It really shoul…

>Disinformation only works if you're too lazy to research the reality.

That's like 95% of the time for 95% of people though.

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