A Tour Of A “Pay to Download Firefox” Site • Hacker News Board

Re: A Tour Of A “Pay to Download Firefox” Site

#31

Post by Luff » Wed, Oct 21, 2009, 2:39 AM UTC

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #21

lionhearted wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm all for capitalism and making money, but this is just wrong. I think this a problem that people have - they (somehow) equate corruption/taking advantage of people/kickbacks with "capitalism". This is not the case - I've spent some a bit of time in more socialist and communist countries, and these things seem to happen even more there. People trying to take advantage of others happens regardless of economic or p…

Capitalism flat-out can't function without a reasonably clear, consistent and fair application of the rule of law (a painfully and repeatedly demonstrated fact that neoliberal and libertarian fundamentalists tend to forget).

What does this swing at libertarians have to do with anything else in this thread? No law has been broken, so how would the absence of the rule of law change anything in this case?

Convincing stupid people to make bad deals is immoral but not punishable by law, else most CEO's of banks and phone-companies would be behind bars. And forbidding unequal deals would be the same as forbidding profits.

Also, capitalism without 'a reasonably clear, consistent and fair application of the rule of law', would mean no taxes, no regulations, no law enforcement - just private property and free trade, yes? I too think that there would be a lot of problems with that, especially resolving contract disputes and cases of fraud without resorting to violence.

That said, how and where has that "fact" you present been "painfully and repeatedly demonstrated"?

FTR, I'm not libertarian, but seeing them called fundamentalists with an unsubstantiated argument, in an unrelated thread, annoyed me.

Re: A Tour Of A “Pay to Download Firefox” Site

#32

Post by netsp » Wed, Oct 21, 2009, 3:03 AM UTC

lionhearted wrote: post #14

jasonlbaptiste wrote: post #2

Ever wonder how to put yourself closer to the front of the line to hell? This is a good article to read if you're interested. I'm all for capitalism and making money, but this is just wrong. Sure you can say, well people are dumb enough! Yeah, most people are dumb, but that doesn't mean you go ripping them off.

> I'm all for capitalism and making money, but this is just wrong. I think this a problem that people have - they (somehow) equate corruption/taking advantage of people/kickbacks with "capitalism". This is not the case - I've spent some a bit of time in more socialist and communist countries, and these things seem to happen even more there. People trying to take advantage of others happens regardless of economic or p…

The premise of capitalism (especially capitalism as moral philosophy) is that if two parties come together & a transaction occurs, both walk away better off. Otherwise the transaction would not occur. Therefore, it cannot be considered immoral.

Protection against corruption/taking advantage is built in. Don't like it? Don't buy it.

Re: A Tour Of A “Pay to Download Firefox” Site

#33

Post by netsp » Wed, Oct 21, 2009, 3:09 AM UTC

nazgulnarsil wrote: post #16

all the moral righteousness is pretty funny/sad at the same time. they're charging for access to their call center basically. I don't really see anything wrong with that. the beauty of capitalism is that no one (even you smart geeks) gets to decide what the price of things are. you live and die by consumer demand.

they're charging for access to their call center basically. I don't really see anything wrong with that.

Rubbish. They are charging people to download Firefox. The reason they can do this is because people don't know it's free. If you approached these people & said, "do you want to buy access to our call center?" They would say no.

Re: A Tour Of A “Pay to Download Firefox” Site

#34

Post by netsp » Wed, Oct 21, 2009, 3:11 AM UTC

netsp wrote: post #32

lionhearted wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm all for capitalism and making money, but this is just wrong. I think this a problem that people have - they (somehow) equate corruption/taking advantage of people/kickbacks with "capitalism". This is not the case - I've spent some a bit of time in more socialist and communist countries, and these things seem to happen even more there. People trying to take advantage of others happens regardless of economic or p…

The premise of capitalism (especially capitalism as moral philosophy) is that if two parties come together & a transaction occurs, both walk away better off. Otherwise the transaction would not occur. Therefore, it cannot be considered immoral. Protection against corruption/taking advantage is built in. Don't like it? Don't buy it.

I hope I am not being voted up because people think I'm saying nothing morally problematic is going on. I meant to offer support to the grandparent comment.

There is such a thing as an immoral yet free transaction.

Re: A Tour Of A “Pay to Download Firefox” Site

#35

Post by lionhearted » Wed, Oct 21, 2009, 3:29 AM UTC

netsp wrote: post #32

lionhearted wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm all for capitalism and making money, but this is just wrong. I think this a problem that people have - they (somehow) equate corruption/taking advantage of people/kickbacks with "capitalism". This is not the case - I've spent some a bit of time in more socialist and communist countries, and these things seem to happen even more there. People trying to take advantage of others happens regardless of economic or p…

The premise of capitalism (especially capitalism as moral philosophy) is that if two parties come together & a transaction occurs, both walk away better off. Otherwise the transaction would not occur. Therefore, it cannot be considered immoral. Protection against corruption/taking advantage is built in. Don't like it? Don't buy it.

Sort of agree with you - actually, I completely agree with you, just I was originally making a slightly different point.

The point was that this interaction wasn't a feature of "capitalism" - it wasn't a free and honest exchange. The seller here was pretty clearly trying to deceive and cheat people. This happens under all sorts of economic and political systems.

But here's some examples - it wasn't just selling something for more than the market rate. The seller is clearly trying to deceive/misinformative/cheat people. If you look in depth at the screenshots, it wasn't "borderline", it was pretty egregious:

The URLs and advertisements all list free download and don't make it clear that they're not officially with Firefox.

They change and mix up the pricing right next to each other, it's designed to look confusing:

"Get 3 years... only £9.98 per year"

"Get 2 years... only £0.99 per month"

Then there's this doozy:

"Signup now and join the millions of users that download files on the internet"

The order page (second to last image) says on the header, "Download FireFox 3.5 Instantly!" without explaining that the 76 pounds they're charging isn't for Firefox, it's for some membership support something-or-other.

It's like when people put ads for fake things on Craigslist. This particular instance probably isn't criminal, but it's really toeing the line on fraud - I'm pretty sure if anyone was refused their money back and went to small claims, they'd get their money back plus damages.

But again, this isn't a "capitalism" thing. Under theocracy, churches used to take money to help get your dead relatives into heaven faster. People pay large money in Africa and Eastern Europe to be smuggled across borders. Lots of bribery necessary to get things done in corrupt countries, or to have a shot to get into a Communist/Central run business or education system, where it becomes all about who you know instead of the more objective free enterprise exchanges.

Is what's going on here bad? Yes, definitely. Is it "capitalism"? Oh hell no. It's corruption and fraud. Humans sometimes try to cheat each other, again regardless of the economic and political system in place.

Re: A Tour Of A “Pay to Download Firefox” Site

#36

Post by netsp » Wed, Oct 21, 2009, 4:10 AM UTC

lionhearted wrote: post #35

netsp wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The premise of capitalism (especially capitalism as moral philosophy) is that if two parties come together & a transaction occurs, both walk away better off. Otherwise the transaction would not occur. Therefore, it cannot be considered immoral. Protection against corruption/taking advantage is built in. Don't like it? Don't buy it.

Sort of agree with you - actually, I completely agree with you, just I was originally making a slightly different point. The point was that this interaction wasn't a feature of "capitalism" - it wasn't a free and honest exchange. The seller here was pretty clearly trying to deceive and cheat people. This happens under all sorts of economic and political systems. But here's some examples - it wasn't just selling somet…

I think this is a feature (or bug) of capitalism. Capitalism (or socialism for that matter) is a hard to use term. No one agrees on its real meaning. Free is definitely a premise. Honest, I'm not sure. I think many free marketers argue that honesty is one of the emergent qualities of markets.

There is a capitalist core though. I think that core says that the non-market system (governments, societies, etc.) need to make sure that things are free. Emergent order will take care of the rest. Incentives & feedbacks will make sure (via the mechanism described above) that transactions are profitable for all parties, that they are safe & that they are otherwise ethical. Honesty is usually included in this.

Again, when I say 'usually included,' it's hard to nail down what I mean. Most people have obviously never considered this particular aspect. They use think in more general terms. But the Capitalism-as-philosophy guys (Libertarians in the US, Austrian-schoolers or Liberals some other places), would consider honesty as something that emerges, part of capitalism.

Re: A Tour Of A “Pay to Download Firefox” Site

#37

Post by sfnhltb » Wed, Oct 21, 2009, 6:30 AM UTC

conanite wrote: post #17

lionhearted wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm all for capitalism and making money, but this is just wrong. I think this a problem that people have - they (somehow) equate corruption/taking advantage of people/kickbacks with "capitalism". This is not the case - I've spent some a bit of time in more socialist and communist countries, and these things seem to happen even more there. People trying to take advantage of others happens regardless of economic or p…

The law unfortunately is our best effort at drawing a clear line (i said, "best effort") between acceptable and unacceptable behaviour. I'm not sure there is any hypothetical legal system that could eliminate every one of these scam businesses. And I'm not sure there's a hypothetical education system that can prepare those who would be fools, enough to put the scammers out of business. And I would be scared of a busi…

This leads to the fundamental weakness of how governments are perceived of course - even if you make a really great law it has to be a "clear line", so it can't be complicated enough to cover every possibility - which means there will always be some wiggle room for some to take advantage of, and some will be hit by the law that shouldn't be.

As the media deals in anecdotes, even if you really minimise the amount of people in either of these categories by an exceptionally well crafted law, it is still easy for them to generate stories that make the law look too weak, or too draconian (depending on the political preference of the journalist/news organisation) by trotting out whichever handful of cases they dredge up that supports their views.

Re: A Tour Of A “Pay to Download Firefox” Site

#38

Post by sfnhltb » Wed, Oct 21, 2009, 6:44 AM UTC

netsp wrote: post #32

lionhearted wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm all for capitalism and making money, but this is just wrong. I think this a problem that people have - they (somehow) equate corruption/taking advantage of people/kickbacks with "capitalism". This is not the case - I've spent some a bit of time in more socialist and communist countries, and these things seem to happen even more there. People trying to take advantage of others happens regardless of economic or p…

The premise of capitalism (especially capitalism as moral philosophy) is that if two parties come together & a transaction occurs, both walk away better off. Otherwise the transaction would not occur. Therefore, it cannot be considered immoral. Protection against corruption/taking advantage is built in. Don't like it? Don't buy it.

Of course the slight problem is that the underlying axioms of capitalism/free marketism is that the only possible consumer is God, as you need to have perfect information about the entire universe so that you can make the correct transactions. When your economic system is based on the idea that omniscience is required of everyone taking part, it is impossible to make statements about how fool proof the system is.

Re: A Tour Of A “Pay to Download Firefox” Site

#39

Post by cookiecaper » Wed, Oct 21, 2009, 8:29 AM UTC

omouse wrote: post #24

blhack wrote: post #6

I wish that firefox would start charging. Something like a $100 for a 1000 seat license or something similar. Why? Because when I go to one of my bosses and say "I think we try and transition away from IE. Here, this is Firefox, it is free and it is wonderful", their reaction is "Free?!" and visions of shitty freeware from the 90s fill their heads. In order to keep us geeks happy, they could offer a source distributi…

It wouldn't be a "seat license", it would be a redistribution fee or something. They really should have a version for businesses. Actually, since it's legal, you could start your own company that sells Firefox to businesses. I think the only requirement is that you can't call it Firefox but have to call it something else (trademarks or something).

One could contract with Mozilla to become an "official support distributor" or something like that and obtain the rights to use the trademark, assuming Mozilla is agreed to such a deal, and I don't see why they wouldn't be, it only stands to improve adoption if the company offering support is legit.

Also, I'm not sure if you're right or not. From what I remember, you can only call the product Firefox if the code matches verbatim; Debian &c. apply custom patches not included in Firefox proper and are therefore obliged to rebrand. If you used the Mozilla builds, are you sure this would apply? Curious here.

Re: A Tour Of A “Pay to Download Firefox” Site

#40

Post by matthijs » Wed, Oct 21, 2009, 9:26 AM UTC

There are so many of these sites, the shortest url I know involved in this is tv.org ( http://tv.org/join.php ).

Credit card companies block sites like allofmp3.com but still help these kinds of scammers. As soon as they start blocking/refusing these kind of sites it gets a whole lot harder for them to scam people...