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Confessions of a mortician

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Re: Confessions of a mortician

#31

Post by orangecat »

Gatsky wrote: post #29
christiangenco wrote: post #19

The raw terror of the inevitability of death without comfort of distraction or mental illusion — "fleshing," as Puchner describes it — was brilliantly captured here in a way I've never before heard or read expressed by another person. It's relieving, in a way, to know that I'm not the only human to chronically go through it. I especially enjoyed his comment on the difficulties of erecting a comforting fantasy of an a…

Fear of non-being, whether through death, losing one's mind, dementia etc is one aspect of the problem of living. I have found in my own case that the purely rational, aspiritual approach in life leaves me with a pretty anemic and empty philosophy on how to live, composed of a few cliches and self-aggrandized 'staring into the abyss'. Eventually I found this rather unsatisfying. I was hoping for something more than a…

but then what?

Then we stop telling ourselves comforting fairy tales, and start treating aging and death as the catastrophes that they are. For me, that means regular donations to sens.org.

Re: Confessions of a mortician

#32

Post by marvin »

cdoxsey wrote: post #21
christiangenco wrote: post #19

The raw terror of the inevitability of death without comfort of distraction or mental illusion — "fleshing," as Puchner describes it — was brilliantly captured here in a way I've never before heard or read expressed by another person. It's relieving, in a way, to know that I'm not the only human to chronically go through it. I especially enjoyed his comment on the difficulties of erecting a comforting fantasy of an a…

It's a curse, in a way, to have (be?) a brain trained to recognize and solve problems, optimize expected outcome, and see through bullshit when the popular solution to existential debilitating dread — religion — crumbles at the slightest analysis. Ignorance is bliss, to add to Puchner's ostensibly empty bromides. There are a lot of very intelligent people who believe in an afterlife. They aren't ignorant about the re…

It's hard to admit in scientific company, but I have a Masters degree in science, excellent academic results, IQ well above average and still believe in God, in spite of the supposed contradictions that should apparently entail. And I'm also a relatively firm believer in rationality (including the parts of science that occasionally gets me in trouble with other religious people), with the caveat that I sometimes criticize atheists of believing in the non-existence of God or any other extra-universal entities with a fervor that comes from the same place which religious zeal does.

christiangenco does not speak for everyone when he (apparently) claims that existential dread is an unavoidable curse of intelligence and rationality.

Re: Confessions of a mortician

#33

Post by philwelch »

meowface wrote: post #23
ams6110 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's quite interesting to me that people (you, Puchner, some others here) would experience literal "breathless terrors" at the thought of one's own death. It's never come close to that for me. I've seen both my parents as well as several friends die rather unpleasant deaths (cancer) and I myself have been robbed at gunpoint but I have never felt terror contemplating my own death. It just seems to me to be the natural…

For me, the fear is not of dying, but of permanently losing the potential to ever experience any aspect of life again. It's an unsettling thought that I will never be able to experience fun, laughter, love, or success again. I won't have ideas, I won't hope, I won't dream. My conscious mind will simply join the eternal void and cease to exist. I really dislike the idea of not only having no experiences, but never eve…

> For me, the fear is not of dying, but of permanently losing the potential to ever experience any aspect of life again. It's an unsettling thought that I will never be able to experience fun, laughter, love, or success again. I won't have ideas, I won't hope, I won't dream. My conscious mind will simply join the eternal void and cease to exist.

Sure, but that's no different than before you were born, and that wasn't so bad.

Re: Confessions of a mortician

#34

Post by spiritplumber »

christiangenco wrote: post #19

The raw terror of the inevitability of death without comfort of distraction or mental illusion — "fleshing," as Puchner describes it — was brilliantly captured here in a way I've never before heard or read expressed by another person. It's relieving, in a way, to know that I'm not the only human to chronically go through it. I especially enjoyed his comment on the difficulties of erecting a comforting fantasy of an a…

This is the basic fear that the repent-of-your-sins-and-give-money-to-my-church crowd preys on.... as much as a majority of them are honest, and genuinely don't want their infinitely loving god to send you to hell.

I told one once, in venice beach, that if there is a judgement in the afterlife, i'll be sure to make my judgement on his god kinder than his god's on me. He blew up on me -- enough that the cops had to tell him to calm down, which as one of said cops explained, is unusual because street preachers there get a lot of training on what's borderline acceptable legally.

At least that one was sincere in his beliefs, I guess!

Re: Confessions of a mortician

#35

Post by hw »

proveanegative wrote: post #26
huherto wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I first experienced anxiety about the inevitability of death (or non-existing ever again) when I was sixteen. Grew up on atheist family so I never had the comfort from religion. These are some of the ideas that have helped me along, in case is useful for anyone. Take what works for you, ignore the rest. 1- Don't spend too much time thinking about it. Your time is short, it is silly to waste it worrying. You cannot do…

>Death is the price you pay for living. Be grateful that you had the chance. It is truly a miracle that you are even alive. Of course, the price you pay for living is not just death at the end of your life but also suffering throughout. Just how much suffering you will experience depends on many random factors the effects of some of which (like genetics and early childhood environment) are either very difficult or im…

As much as we ask ourselves whether the price of living is one worth paying, more than often we would prefer to pay down due to the inherent nature of survival in us all. Even for those who experience a lot of suffering that possibly brings one to prefer death, whether one thinks that life is worth living is subjective. It not only depends on how much suffering you experience, but how much you value everything else relative to suffering.

Re: Confessions of a mortician

#36

Post by petercooper »

Being one to get distracted by irrelevant details, I wondered why the "CHECK FOR PACEMAKER" sign was so prominent in one of the pictures. It turns out pacemakers causing explosions in cremator furnaces is a major problem, in some cases damaging the cremator entirely or injuring staff: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1279940/

Re: Confessions of a mortician

#37

Post by nagrom »

cdoxsey wrote: post #21
christiangenco wrote: post #19

The raw terror of the inevitability of death without comfort of distraction or mental illusion — "fleshing," as Puchner describes it — was brilliantly captured here in a way I've never before heard or read expressed by another person. It's relieving, in a way, to know that I'm not the only human to chronically go through it. I especially enjoyed his comment on the difficulties of erecting a comforting fantasy of an a…

It's a curse, in a way, to have (be?) a brain trained to recognize and solve problems, optimize expected outcome, and see through bullshit when the popular solution to existential debilitating dread — religion — crumbles at the slightest analysis. Ignorance is bliss, to add to Puchner's ostensibly empty bromides. There are a lot of very intelligent people who believe in an afterlife. They aren't ignorant about the re…

They may earnestly believe in it, but they cannot provide a shred of evidence that it exists and all authority that claims that it does is inevitably found to be either a) mistaken or b) fraudulent.

Very intelligent, otherwise rational people believe in false propositions that make them feel happy, relieved or secure all the time. Unless there's evidence, that belief is as unfounded as the belief of most people that their husband is noble, their wife is beautiful, their child is special, that they deserve what they have, etc. It's a very human, completely fine thing to believe all of these things (even necessary for a healthy life), but when you look at them rationally, you cannot suppose that they are true.

An afterlife doesn't need to be proven false. There just has to be some evidence, (not even proof, just any evidence beyond 'I feel it') to make it a proposition worth considering. Until then, since so many have looked for evidence and failed to find it, the only rational view of the situation is to suppose (and behave) like it doesn't. You're made of meat, death is final, there is no do-over. Make this life count, try to bring about the change that you want to see, because there is no higher authority, there is no second chance.

Re: Confessions of a mortician

#38

Post by kweinber »

I work in the industry and there are two things that helped me through my feelings of internal dread.

1) Becker's "The Denial Of Death" is an incredible summary of Otto Rank's psychoanalytic work, explains Freud"s fallibility and explains more about human motivations in life and death (from corporations to cults, from fetuses to fetishes) than any book I've ever read.

2) A colleague once told me "life is like cake". I immediately asked him to stop because it sounded banal, but he continued with something like this: Don't waste the enjoyment of eating cake by worrying that you can't eat it forever. Just because it doesnt last forever doesn't mean you shouldnt ennoy it (just tbe opposite) . Things weren't so bad before you had the cake... and when you've finished yours, who knows, maybe you'll get to have cake another time later..

I probably butchered it and who knows where he got that from, but I found it much more motivating and comforting than carpe diem.

Re: Confessions of a mortician

#39

Post by _xnmw »

nagrom wrote: post #37
cdoxsey wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a curse, in a way, to have (be?) a brain trained to recognize and solve problems, optimize expected outcome, and see through bullshit when the popular solution to existential debilitating dread — religion — crumbles at the slightest analysis. Ignorance is bliss, to add to Puchner's ostensibly empty bromides. There are a lot of very intelligent people who believe in an afterlife. They aren't ignorant about the re…

They may earnestly believe in it, but they cannot provide a shred of evidence that it exists and all authority that claims that it does is inevitably found to be either a) mistaken or b) fraudulent. Very intelligent, otherwise rational people believe in false propositions that make them feel happy, relieved or secure all the time. Unless there's evidence, that belief is as unfounded as the belief of most people that…

> cannot provide a shred of evidence.

Human testimony is evidence, especially if corroborated by multiple unrelated sources (i.e. countless mystics from many different backgrounds and eras, many of which are completely absolved of having a material interest). A collective conscience, i.e. the fact that practically all ancient peoples believed in God and an afterlife can be considered atleast a "shred" of evidence.

I think it's wrong to say that there isn't a "shred" of evidence.

Re: Confessions of a mortician

#40

Post by [deleted] »

huherto wrote: post #24
christiangenco wrote: post #19

The raw terror of the inevitability of death without comfort of distraction or mental illusion — "fleshing," as Puchner describes it — was brilliantly captured here in a way I've never before heard or read expressed by another person. It's relieving, in a way, to know that I'm not the only human to chronically go through it. I especially enjoyed his comment on the difficulties of erecting a comforting fantasy of an a…

I first experienced anxiety about the inevitability of death (or non-existing ever again) when I was sixteen. Grew up on atheist family so I never had the comfort from religion. These are some of the ideas that have helped me along, in case is useful for anyone. Take what works for you, ignore the rest. 1- Don't spend too much time thinking about it. Your time is short, it is silly to waste it worrying. You cannot do…

[deleted]
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