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Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

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Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#31

Post by thrownaway2424 »

tedunangst wrote: post #26
thrownaway2424 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's about the opportunity cost. What other thing could the police be doing instead of giving traffic tickets to cyclists? After all, the best case outcome of doing so is to reduce pedestrian injuries from 1 per year to 0 per year, which isn't much of a benefit. 16000 people were injured and 178 killed by cars in NYC in 2013. That's a much richer hunting ground for police activity.

"Stop turning a blind eye" doesn't require that many new resources to enforce. The only opportunity cost is the time it takes the officer to write the ticket, which isn't much.

NYPD says they don't even have the resources to investigate fatal car crashes. They didn't bother investigating the death of a three year old girl in a crosswalk this year. The driver didn't even get so much as a ticket. If there's some cop standing around with nothing to do I'm sure they could be assigned to look into the fifty pedestrian injury collisions that happen every day in New York.

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#32

Post by Arainach »

shittyanalogy wrote: post #27

I never really understood the value in ticketing cyclists, or jay walkers for that matter in NYC. Very few people are getting hurt, even in the densest metropolitan area in the country so why are we so worried about it? Because cyclists can be annoying sometimes? Also the city speed limit went down to 25 mph. Isn't this supposed to take care of many of the collisions? Those of us that are safe cyclists but run red li…

> Those of us that are safe cyclists but run red lights

Speaking as someone who bikes/takes transit everywhere (in Seattle, not NYC), what an oxymoron. I'm not saying that at every single stop sign you have to come to a complete, foot-on-the-ground stop, but running lights is ridiculous and will do nothing but increase the hatred for all cyclists held by drivers by antagonizing them. Every OTHER form of transportation seems to do just fine "stopping at every goddamn light". Get off your high horse - even if a bicycle running a light isn't the same threat to public safety as a multi-ton steel death machine doing so, claiming that you can do so and be a "safe cyclist" will do nothing but hurt your credibility.

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#33

Post by oh_sigh »

uptown wrote: post #16

The stats presented by the article are very myopic. Bikes are mobile objects that frequently travel between areas covered by multiple precincts. Rather than looking solely at the 5th precinct, they arguably should have presented a wider view of the city's records on bicycle activity. When you do that, it paints a very different picture of some of the statistics. For instance - "cyclist accidents that caused deaths" :…

You should be directing your criticism at the NYPD, which is the group that put forward the claim that there was a 115% increase in bicycle accidents in the 5th precinct.

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#34

Post by talos »

tedunangst wrote: post #26
thrownaway2424 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's about the opportunity cost. What other thing could the police be doing instead of giving traffic tickets to cyclists? After all, the best case outcome of doing so is to reduce pedestrian injuries from 1 per year to 0 per year, which isn't much of a benefit. 16000 people were injured and 178 killed by cars in NYC in 2013. That's a much richer hunting ground for police activity.

"Stop turning a blind eye" doesn't require that many new resources to enforce. The only opportunity cost is the time it takes the officer to write the ticket, which isn't much.

The enforcement tactic in NYC w/r/t cyclist infractions is to have at least two cops sitting around ticketing every biker who goes by committing a minor infraction. The opportunity cost is everything else those officers could've been doing for those several hours (perhaps ticketing the numerous cars blowing through red lights at the very same intersection.)

I live in NYC, I have seen this happen.

Of course, it is much more difficult and disruptive to ticket a car that has just blown a red light at high speed, than a biker who has blown a red light. Unfortunately, the city isn't allowed to install red light cams in most places because of Albany. Red light cams would be a safe, fair counterpart to increased red light enforcement for bikes. That being said, very very very few people are injured and none are killed because of bikes running reds (neither collision in Central Park this year was at an intersection). Likely hundreds are injured and at least dozens are killed from cars running red lights every year.

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#35

Post by uptown »

lfuller wrote: post #21
uptown wrote: post #16

The stats presented by the article are very myopic. Bikes are mobile objects that frequently travel between areas covered by multiple precincts. Rather than looking solely at the 5th precinct, they arguably should have presented a wider view of the city's records on bicycle activity. When you do that, it paints a very different picture of some of the statistics. For instance - "cyclist accidents that caused deaths" :…

That's not relevant to the discussion. This article was disputing a claim that "the 5th Pct. had a 115% increase in bicycle collisions this year", not that NYC in general had an increase.

Understood.

But the premise of the article asks if the 5th Precinct plans to "start ticketing more cyclists". The tweet didn't say that. It said they'll be enforcing violations, which is what you expect police officers to do with laws that are on the books.

You're right - maybe the stats are bad, and the post is right to ask for clarification. But the post assumes the tweet means they'll change their enforcement tactics, and I don't read that in this tweet.

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#36

Post by schrodinger »

Arainach wrote: post #32
shittyanalogy wrote: post #27

I never really understood the value in ticketing cyclists, or jay walkers for that matter in NYC. Very few people are getting hurt, even in the densest metropolitan area in the country so why are we so worried about it? Because cyclists can be annoying sometimes? Also the city speed limit went down to 25 mph. Isn't this supposed to take care of many of the collisions? Those of us that are safe cyclists but run red li…

> Those of us that are safe cyclists but run red lights Speaking as someone who bikes/takes transit everywhere (in Seattle, not NYC), what an oxymoron. I'm not saying that at every single stop sign you have to come to a complete, foot-on-the-ground stop, but running lights is ridiculous and will do nothing but increase the hatred for all cyclists held by drivers by antagonizing them. Every OTHER form of transportatio…

Eh, I'm a cyclist in NYC and when i come to a red light i slow way down and if there are any pedestrians or cars, I stop. But if it's completely clear, I'll roll through slowly and carefully. It feels pretty safe and I make sure that I always come to complete stops far back if there are pedestrians because they have the right away.

I've heard that some states legally treat red lights and stop signs as yield signs for bicyclists, and I think that's reasonable. I view what I do as the same as jay walking... Technically illegal, but no one is going to stand and wait at a cross walk for 30 seconds for a light to change when it's clear there's no one coming.

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#37

Post by jasonjei »

As a motorcyclist, I think cyclists should be held to the same rules of the law as other vehicles to make driving predictable and safe. As it stands right now, I have to assume cyclists (via heuristics/profiling) as a wildcard--will they run a red light? Will they weave in and out of traffic unsafely (this is an acceptable practice, when done with ample buffer given their size and speed)?

I think cycling is great (I'm also a cyclist as well). But the fact they don't carry a vehicle registration shouldn't exempt them the rules of the public road to make them predictable users (and unpredictable users, such as those erratically lane splitting, jaywalking, reckless driving, under the influence, speeding, etc, should be penalized to encourage predictable use).

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#38

Post by clarry »

Arainach wrote: post #32
shittyanalogy wrote: post #27

I never really understood the value in ticketing cyclists, or jay walkers for that matter in NYC. Very few people are getting hurt, even in the densest metropolitan area in the country so why are we so worried about it? Because cyclists can be annoying sometimes? Also the city speed limit went down to 25 mph. Isn't this supposed to take care of many of the collisions? Those of us that are safe cyclists but run red li…

> Those of us that are safe cyclists but run red lights Speaking as someone who bikes/takes transit everywhere (in Seattle, not NYC), what an oxymoron. I'm not saying that at every single stop sign you have to come to a complete, foot-on-the-ground stop, but running lights is ridiculous and will do nothing but increase the hatred for all cyclists held by drivers by antagonizing them. Every OTHER form of transportatio…

It can increase hatred towards you, but that does not make you an unsafe cyclist.

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#39

Post by shittyanalogy »

Arainach wrote: post #32
shittyanalogy wrote: post #27

I never really understood the value in ticketing cyclists, or jay walkers for that matter in NYC. Very few people are getting hurt, even in the densest metropolitan area in the country so why are we so worried about it? Because cyclists can be annoying sometimes? Also the city speed limit went down to 25 mph. Isn't this supposed to take care of many of the collisions? Those of us that are safe cyclists but run red li…

> Those of us that are safe cyclists but run red lights Speaking as someone who bikes/takes transit everywhere (in Seattle, not NYC), what an oxymoron. I'm not saying that at every single stop sign you have to come to a complete, foot-on-the-ground stop, but running lights is ridiculous and will do nothing but increase the hatred for all cyclists held by drivers by antagonizing them. Every OTHER form of transportatio…

Every OTHER form of transportation...

Certainly does not stop at every red light. Specifically pedestrians. Bikes are more maneuverable and faster than pedestrians while decreasing safety only by the slightest margin if even any. I honestly don't see the problem.

Also I think it's important to note that there is no term for "safely crossing an intersection even though the light is red." That and blowing through indiscriminately are both referred to as "running" which I think contributes to a large problem in perception.

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#40

Post by genericuser »

clarry wrote: post #38
Arainach wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those of us that are safe cyclists but run red lights Speaking as someone who bikes/takes transit everywhere (in Seattle, not NYC), what an oxymoron. I'm not saying that at every single stop sign you have to come to a complete, foot-on-the-ground stop, but running lights is ridiculous and will do nothing but increase the hatred for all cyclists held by drivers by antagonizing them. Every OTHER form of transportatio…

It can increase hatred towards you, but that does not make you an unsafe cyclist.

If the drivers are present and having their hatred increased, then the cars are present and you shouldn't be running the red light when cars are present, because yes that does make you an unsafe cyclist in that regard.
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