Live data from Hacker News

Chaos Computer Club Supports Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden

ccc.de

31–40 of 53 posts

Re: Chaos Computer Club Supports Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden

#31

I don't really understand supporting Chelsea Manning, or equating her plight with Snowden's. Snowden had a purpose and a plan, and executed it while attempting to keep people from getting hurt. Chelsea Manning lashed out at an army that didn't support her and put her in the wrong position. The military may have mistreated her, but they're still not the same thing.

Mainly the fact that they both put their career, and life, on the line to expose what they thought was a grave injustice.

Also according Glenn Greenwald Snowden was inspired by Manning. That right there is reason enough to support her.

Re: Chaos Computer Club Supports Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden

#32
post #12
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is also a solved problem (largely) around trans issues specifically. I suggest reading http://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender for more context. In particular, you should refer to Chelsea as she would want -- with her current name and her expressed gender pronoun preference (e.g., use 'her' where you use 'his' above). Also, "gender association" is not a common formulation. In terms of capturing the nuance of…

Is this a largely solved problem around the issue, or a solved problem in and around the community? I ask because I'm torn between wanting to respect the individual, but also as a computer scientist feeling somewhat offended that someone's later choice of how they want to refer to themselves caused altered accounts of historical information, which to my eyes is more confusing (and possibly less accurate, if that conf…

You are confused because you are seeing gender how it is currently used, which is a social construct that is assigned to people largely beyond their control that affects how others see and interact with them; and what some people want gender to be: solely an expression of one's personal gender identification, that to be respectful everyone else must acknowledge.

Re: Chaos Computer Club Supports Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden

#33
post #11

Do they support Pussy Riot and the Falung Gong? Or are they only interested in folks who reveal US secrets and work against the US government?

The organisation you are looking for is Amnesty International. The Chaos Computer Club's focus should be obvious from their name. I don't recall Pussy Riot or Falung Gong revealing government secrets and blowing the whistle on unalawful behaviour generally involving computers. Many people who are critical of aspects of US policy and institutional behaviour grew up looking at the US as a shining light of freedom and justice in opposition to the evil that was the USSR. Not everything is an anti-us conspiracy, perhaps the required eternal vigilance hasn't been quite vigilant enough and now we know? Perhaps it is starting to be properly vigilant again and the USA's greatness will re-assert itself just as some patriotic American heroes did previously against the likes of McCarthy?

Anyway here is the wikipedia page for the CCC with whom I happen to have absolutely zero association. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_Computer_Club Give it a cursory glance and decide for yourself if this group is focused on being "anti-american"

Re: Chaos Computer Club Supports Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden

#34
post #5
post #2

From the ccc website[1]: > Donations > We gladly accept any donation, even considerable sums. Bank account of the CCC e. V.: Chaos Computer Club e. V. IBAN DE41 2001 0020 0599 0902 01 BIC PBNKDEFF [1] http://www.ccc.de/en/membership

A worthy cause. Also see this page for places to donate to Snowdens defense. https://wikileaks.org/freesnowden (scroll down to Other options) Location for Chelsea Mannings defense/appeal fund: http://couragetoresist.org/2010/09/chelsea-manning-defense-f...

Does that imply that Snowden has some intention of returning to the US and facing trial? Everything I've read from him indicates he doesn't plan on it. If so, what's the purpose of donating to fund his legal defense?

Re: Chaos Computer Club Supports Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is this a largely solved problem around the issue, or a solved problem in and around the community? That a community has solved a problem is no different than the problem being solved (unless of course you don't believe in the validity of trans people). Chelsea Manning has clearly stated that she is a woman and should be referred to as a woman. > I ask because I'm torn between wanting to respect the individual, but…

Isn't this what "née" is for?

Or the much more common singular they.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they#Usage

Re: Chaos Computer Club Supports Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden

#36
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think of it as a database. A table of events with foreign key references to a table of people. Now if someone's name changes, you only need to update a single entry, eliminating both redundancy and inconsistency in our database. If I look up events about Beyoncé Giselle Knowles-Carter, I sure hope that I find things like when she was born! If you insist on tying events to name at the time of the event, you have a muc…

That's one possible schema, which assumes the name is the primary key. Now that we've established that the name can change, I think it makes a bad choice for a primary key. Instead, I would think you look up a name, and get a link to the primary record, allowing multiple names in use (whether active currently or not). I personally think any schema that requires going back and changing primary keys on a record (and th…

IMO Wikipedia-esque redirects seem to be a perfectly valid, respectful, non-confusing way of handling cases such as this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_manning

Re: Chaos Computer Club Supports Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden

#37
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What actually did the 'army' do in Iraq? Thinking a bit about that might help you to understand what Manning did and why...

Why would you put army in quotes? It's really an army, so that doesn't make sense. Chelsea Manning was a confused person when she released the documents. She felt isolated from the people around her and searched for inclusion elsewhere. She developed a friendly relationship with Wikileaks personnel, and sent them hundreds of thousands of random documents. Later, she sent the helicopter video and hundreds of thousands…

'army' to highlight the the massive problems really wasn't all the army's doing. Elected politicians, unelected public servants, media informing the public spectacularly badly and so on really can't be laid at the door of the armed forces. Whatever the armed forces did wrong they should have to answer for individually and in terms of institutional reform (as we all should in all our walks of life) but not those wrongs they really had no power to put right. Can we please keep repeating that Manning was inspired to do what he believed to be the right thing by Elie Wiesel and specifically referenced this video: http://vimeo.com/5081720 in his irc discussions with Adrian Lamo that got him arrested and jailed. Manning was looking at people being rounded up for their scholarly political views. That's a fact, not conjecture. It has a wow factor. If you aren't willing to accept being a part of that as he wasn't and believe that the institution you love is in dire need of serious reform, what can you do? What will you do? Criticizing Manning or Snowden or Greenwald or Poitras or Drake or for that matter Assange but spending no energy at all on the required institutional reforms or being critical of the evil that does kill unjustly and unnecessarily doesn't seem like a particularly courageous answer. Reform is hard, PR much easier if you're in power and can get away with that. I don't think they can or will because now the dust settles people can be a bit more confident who had done the wrong thing. "We tortured some folk..." Gotta start somewhere.

Re: Chaos Computer Club Supports Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this what "née" is for?

Or the much more common singular they . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they#Usage

"née" isn't a pronoun; it's used to identify someone's birth name as distinct from her current name, as in "Hillary Clinton, née Rodham". A French-to-English dictionary says it literally means "born". (And when conjugated with a male noun, in French it would be "né".)

Re: Chaos Computer Club Supports Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I was aware from the news that Bradley Manning had issues with gender, but wasn't aware he had changed his gender association. There is a lot to unpack in this statement. First, you should absolutely edit this to change the name and gender pronouns, you are clearly misgendering this person. Secondly, being trans isn't about gender association, it is expressing and living as your gender, period. 'Gender association'…

> 'Gender association' implies that there is some true gender rather than what Chelsea Manning has stated and that is very transphobic whether you realize it or not. I haven't downvoted you but let me explain why others have. You're making politically controversial statements and essentially accusing anyone who disagrees with you of being a bigot. This place is full of engineers. There are only two ways you can say t…

> I haven't downvoted you but let me explain why others have. You're making politically controversial statements and essentially accusing anyone who disagrees with you of being a bigot.

I am not accusing anyone of being a bigot. However, it would be silly to assume that there are not cultural and social biases about gender that you and I grow up with and have, even if we don't realize it. That is what I am getting at: this isn't some accusation, but that statement definitely has a connotation about what it means to be a particular gender.

> This place is full of engineers. There are only two ways you can say there is no true gender. The first is to take the anti-science position that males and females have the same chromosomes with all that entails and the second is to redefine "gender" to mean something outside of what most people understand it to mean.

Gender is not your genes and there is a difference between sex and gender. The view that sex and gender have difference is not an unusual understanding of what gender means. Moreover, there is a lot of assumptions and stereotypes in culture and society about gender. Even if those assumptions are common, that does not mean they are valid or that they are not harmful.

> It's completely understandable that members of a community where making subtle distinctions are important would want to redefine relevant words to make their meaning more clear to one another.

You are implying that trans people being able to define their identity and having their identity accepted is a niche thing that isn't relevant to society as a whole when it most certainly is. Being able to have an identity and exist without facing violence and hardship is important no matter how numerically small a population is.

> But becoming indignant when other people won't adopt your Newspeak is just contributing to the political inflammation of the situation.

I think you missed the point of what Newspeak is. Correcting false assumptions and stereotypes about gender is not about limiting discussion or dialog. Further, there is no way that trans communities are even close to being in a position of political power and influence, being able to have their identity without that identity being challenged just because they exist isn't an attempt to suppress people.

Re: Chaos Computer Club Supports Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden

#40
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I was aware from the news that Bradley Manning had issues with gender, but wasn't aware he had changed his gender association. There is a lot to unpack in this statement. First, you should absolutely edit this to change the name and gender pronouns, you are clearly misgendering this person. Secondly, being trans isn't about gender association, it is expressing and living as your gender, period. 'Gender association'…

> There is a lot to unpack in this statement. First, you should absolutely edit this to change the name and gender pronouns, you are clearly misgendering this person I feel that's white-washing the record, when I think my intent was clear and honest. I was asking for how to deal with this, not stating a preference. Instead I'll apologize here with a clarification of intent (as I've done elsewhere). If I had known the…

> I feel that's white-washing the record, when I think my intent was clear and honest. I was asking for how to deal with this, not stating a preference. Instead I'll apologize here with a clarification of intent (as I've done elsewhere). If I had known the correct way to refer to Chelsea Manning in the past tense, I would have done so. Since I didn't, I used the method I thought made the most sense, with explanation.

It's not a blame thing or a "tut tut shame on you". The fact is it is a misgendering and that is harmful to people even if unintended. You don't need to apologize to me, but I think you should do the right thing and edit your original post and change the pronouns.

> How does it portray them in a negative light? Is Muhammad Ali portrayed in a negative light when he's referred to as Cassius Clay in the past? In what ways is that different? Is it different just because of the current state of social acceptance of transgender people? Does that imply that at some point in the future it won't be different? Does that strengthen the scheme of the status quo, or is it an argument towards a more normalized usage in past tense?

This has to do with how trans people are reported on and represented in media. Often media will explicitly draw attention to someone being trans while at the same time misgendering or attempting to paint the person as being abnormal or unbalanced. More subtly, often times media and comments will always draw attention to a person's gender before transitioning and it makes it difficult for someone to live as their current, actual identity and gender.

> Well, obviously people are confused, because I just was when I first read the headline of this article, meaning there's at least one person in the world that's been confused by this. Do we need to argue this, or can we move on to something more useful, like trying to figure how many people are confused, how often, how likely they are to fix the confusion, if it's more or less confusing than other schemes, and other pros and cons?

I'm just pointing out that people change names and aliases all the time and we manage to do just fine. There isn't a problem with continuing to use the name Chelsea Manning and the proper gender pronouns.

> The issue here is, I think, that you label referring to someone in the past tense as they were in the past tense as misgendering, while I'm not sure I accept that. I think people can be expected to and have a right to control their current state, I'm not so sure I would extend that to them being able to change their past state.

It's not about the past state. It's that their present state is always reduced back to that previous state. A trans person doesn't take to take their gender for granted and being misgendered is common. That misgender often goes beyond and uncomfortable social situation, that misgendering can challenge your medical access, identification documents, your sexual orientation, and lead to direct violence against your person.

The point I'm making is that there is not need to fret or worry about "historical accuracy" or anything of the sort. Just use the name and pronouns this person explicitly announced to the world as what to use.

Post reply on HN