Do they support Pussy Riot and the Falung Gong? Or are they only interested in folks who reveal US secrets and work against the US government?
Chaos Computer Club Supports Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden
11–20 of 53 posts
Re: Chaos Computer Club Supports Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden
#12I had to look up Chelsea Manning. I was aware from the news that Bradley Manning had issues with gender, but wasn't aware he had changed his gender association. What's considered the current best way to describe this, that Bradley Manning released the documents (past tense) and now Chelsea Manning needs support (present tense), or that Chelsea Manning released documents and now needs support? The first way feels like…
This is also a solved problem (largely) around trans issues specifically. I suggest reading http://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender for more context. In particular, you should refer to Chelsea as she would want -- with her current name and her expressed gender pronoun preference (e.g., use 'her' where you use 'his' above). Also, "gender association" is not a common formulation. In terms of capturing the nuance of…
Is this a largely solved problem around the issue, or a solved problem in and around the community? I ask because I'm torn between wanting to respect the individual, but also as a computer scientist feeling somewhat offended that someone's later choice of how they want to refer to themselves caused altered accounts of historical information, which to my eyes is more confusing (and possibly less accurate, if that confusion isn't addressed promptly and often).
I'm not really sure how to square that with myself, but I think I lean towards preserving the data integrity of the public record. If someone referred to themselves in a specific way and identified themselves a specific way in the past, I think that's how they should be referred to when discussing that point in time.
Re: Chaos Computer Club Supports Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden
#13I don't really understand supporting Chelsea Manning, or equating her plight with Snowden's. Snowden had a purpose and a plan, and executed it while attempting to keep people from getting hurt. Chelsea Manning lashed out at an army that didn't support her and put her in the wrong position. The military may have mistreated her, but they're still not the same thing.
What actually did the 'army' do in Iraq? Thinking a bit about that might help you to understand what Manning did and why...
Re: Chaos Computer Club Supports Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden
#14Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is also a solved problem (largely) around trans issues specifically. I suggest reading http://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender for more context. In particular, you should refer to Chelsea as she would want -- with her current name and her expressed gender pronoun preference (e.g., use 'her' where you use 'his' above). Also, "gender association" is not a common formulation. In terms of capturing the nuance of…
Is this a largely solved problem around the issue, or a solved problem in and around the community? I ask because I'm torn between wanting to respect the individual, but also as a computer scientist feeling somewhat offended that someone's later choice of how they want to refer to themselves caused altered accounts of historical information, which to my eyes is more confusing (and possibly less accurate, if that conf…
Think of it as a database. A table of events with foreign key references to a table of people. Now if someone's name changes, you only need to update a single entry, eliminating both redundancy and inconsistency in our database. If I look up events about Beyoncé Giselle Knowles-Carter, I sure hope that I find things like when she was born! If you insist on tying events to name at the time of the event, you have a much greater propensity for losing information whenever anyone changes their name for any reason! Therefore, from a data integrity standpoint, I think every database engineer would prefer the one name for all history approach. You could even store the name change event itself!
Re: Chaos Computer Club Supports Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden
#15Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is also a solved problem (largely) around trans issues specifically. I suggest reading http://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender for more context. In particular, you should refer to Chelsea as she would want -- with her current name and her expressed gender pronoun preference (e.g., use 'her' where you use 'his' above). Also, "gender association" is not a common formulation. In terms of capturing the nuance of…
Is this a largely solved problem around the issue, or a solved problem in and around the community? I ask because I'm torn between wanting to respect the individual, but also as a computer scientist feeling somewhat offended that someone's later choice of how they want to refer to themselves caused altered accounts of historical information, which to my eyes is more confusing (and possibly less accurate, if that conf…
> Is this a largely solved problem around the issue, or a solved problem in and around the community?
That a community has solved a problem is no different than the problem being solved (unless of course you don't believe in the validity of trans people). Chelsea Manning has clearly stated that she is a woman and should be referred to as a woman.
> I ask because I'm torn between wanting to respect the individual, but also as a computer scientist feeling somewhat offended that someone's later choice of how they want to refer to themselves caused altered accounts of historical information, which to my eyes is more confusing (and possibly less accurate, if that confusion isn't addressed promptly and often).
If you say you are feeling torn, then you are not wanting to respect this person at all, so you really aren't feeling torn. Bottom line, Chelsea Manning is a woman and should be referred to as such. You say you are offended, but what you are really saying is that you feel that you know her gender better than she does. You don't. Your discomfort with trans folks is your own issue and to misgender someone is hugely disrespectful.
> I'm not really sure how to square that with myself, but I think I lean towards preserving the data integrity of the public record. If someone referred to themselves in a specific way and identified themselves a specific way in the past, I think that's how they should be referred to when discussing that point in time.
There is a difference between talking about past events and continuing to insist on misgendering someone in the present.
Re: Chaos Computer Club Supports Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden
#16Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is also a solved problem (largely) around trans issues specifically. I suggest reading http://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender for more context. In particular, you should refer to Chelsea as she would want -- with her current name and her expressed gender pronoun preference (e.g., use 'her' where you use 'his' above). Also, "gender association" is not a common formulation. In terms of capturing the nuance of…
Is this a largely solved problem around the issue, or a solved problem in and around the community? I ask because I'm torn between wanting to respect the individual, but also as a computer scientist feeling somewhat offended that someone's later choice of how they want to refer to themselves caused altered accounts of historical information, which to my eyes is more confusing (and possibly less accurate, if that conf…
The key way to think of this is that the pronoun is an honorific which always signifies the current state of the individual, and it is not a historical fact. If facts related to the individual's gender at an earlier time are germane, such facts should be explicitly stated rather than overloading the pronoun, which (remember) is simply an honorific which the user has selected.
The question of gender earlier in one's life in most stories is not even relevant and there is really no need to discuss it at all. However, in Manning's case the question of gender does appear to be somewhat relevant, since her motive appears to have included concerns about how the Army treated (or failed to treat) her own gender disorder.
Re: Chaos Computer Club Supports Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden
#17Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is this a largely solved problem around the issue, or a solved problem in and around the community? I ask because I'm torn between wanting to respect the individual, but also as a computer scientist feeling somewhat offended that someone's later choice of how they want to refer to themselves caused altered accounts of historical information, which to my eyes is more confusing (and possibly less accurate, if that conf…
Think of it as a database. A table of events with foreign key references to a table of people. Now if someone's name changes, you only need to update a single entry, eliminating both redundancy and inconsistency in our database. If I look up events about Beyoncé Giselle Knowles-Carter, I sure hope that I find things like when she was born! If you insist on tying events to name at the time of the event, you have a muc…
That's one possible schema, which assumes the name is the primary key. Now that we've established that the name can change, I think it makes a bad choice for a primary key. Instead, I would think you look up a name, and get a link to the primary record, allowing multiple names in use (whether active currently or not). I personally think any schema that requires going back and changing primary keys on a record (and thus anything that links to that record by it's key) because of an action that record takes if poorly designed, and likely to have errors, which I think sums up my thoughts on this nicely.
Re: Chaos Computer Club Supports Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden
#18I had to look up Chelsea Manning. I was aware from the news that Bradley Manning had issues with gender, but wasn't aware he had changed his gender association. What's considered the current best way to describe this, that Bradley Manning released the documents (past tense) and now Chelsea Manning needs support (present tense), or that Chelsea Manning released documents and now needs support? The first way feels like…
> I was aware from the news that Bradley Manning had issues with gender, but wasn't aware he had changed his gender association.
There is a lot to unpack in this statement. First, you should absolutely edit this to change the name and gender pronouns, you are clearly misgendering this person. Secondly, being trans isn't about gender association, it is expressing and living as your gender, period. 'Gender association' implies that there is some true gender rather than what Chelsea Manning has stated and that is very transphobic whether you realize it or not.
> What's considered the current best way to describe this, that Bradley Manning released the documents (past tense) and now Chelsea Manning needs support (present tense), or that Chelsea Manning released documents and now needs support?
The latter. Chelsea Manning released these documents and now needs support. If you are speaking to specific historical information, sometimes you may need to refer to the previous name. However, it is rare to need to phrase something this way and usually such phrasings serve to portray being trans in a negative light.
> The first way feels like it's more useful for expressing the situation to those that lived through it, but may be ignoring the identity of the person in question. Referring to the person through the later moniker in all instances may be confusing to those that miss the change as it happens, but may be less confusing to future generations.
It is not confusing whatsoever. People change names and aliases all the time for a variety of reasons but the world doesn't end and future generations aren't confused as to who someone is. Moreover, misgendering someone isn't just ignoring their identity, it is a slap in the face and challenges the validity of their existence.
Re: Chaos Computer Club Supports Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden
#19Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is this a largely solved problem around the issue, or a solved problem in and around the community? I ask because I'm torn between wanting to respect the individual, but also as a computer scientist feeling somewhat offended that someone's later choice of how they want to refer to themselves caused altered accounts of historical information, which to my eyes is more confusing (and possibly less accurate, if that conf…
The key way to think of this is that the pronoun is an honorific which always signifies the current state of the individual, and it is not a historical fact. If facts related to the individual's gender at an earlier time are germane, such facts should be explicitly stated rather than overloading the pronoun, which (remember) is simply an honorific which the user has selected. The question of gender earlier in one's l…
> The question of gender earlier in one's life in most stories is not even relevant and there is really no need to discuss it at all.
Except that gender neutral singular pronouns are not used much in English where they exist (there is a singular they, but it's uncommon it's used). But I think focusing on this is missing the point. Note my reference to Cassius Clay. I'm more interested in that an identifier changes. That the gender specific also changed is just an additional complication, but once the rules on the name are clear, the rules on the pronoun would be obvious, I think.
Re: Chaos Computer Club Supports Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden
#20Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is this a largely solved problem around the issue, or a solved problem in and around the community? I ask because I'm torn between wanting to respect the individual, but also as a computer scientist feeling somewhat offended that someone's later choice of how they want to refer to themselves caused altered accounts of historical information, which to my eyes is more confusing (and possibly less accurate, if that conf…
> Is this a largely solved problem around the issue, or a solved problem in and around the community? That a community has solved a problem is no different than the problem being solved (unless of course you don't believe in the validity of trans people). Chelsea Manning has clearly stated that she is a woman and should be referred to as a woman. > I ask because I'm torn between wanting to respect the individual, but…
Isn't this what "née" is for?