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A Different Path to Fighting Addiction

nytimes.com

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Re: A Different Path to Fighting Addiction

#31

Post by jqm »

danesparza wrote: post #28
mckoss wrote: post #25

The galling thing about AA/NA in the US is that judges often mandate attendance as condition for release of a DUI. The problem being, this violates the defendants 1st amendedment rights by the state forcing a religion on him.

Forgive me, I'm not sure which right you're referring to. The text of the first amendment of the United States of America reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." AA (in my unders…

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.."

When you force people into a program that references some idea of God you are doing exactly that..

Re: A Different Path to Fighting Addiction

#32

Post by dragonwriter »

danesparza wrote: post #28
mckoss wrote: post #25

The galling thing about AA/NA in the US is that judges often mandate attendance as condition for release of a DUI. The problem being, this violates the defendants 1st amendedment rights by the state forcing a religion on him.

Forgive me, I'm not sure which right you're referring to. The text of the first amendment of the United States of America reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." AA (in my unders…

> AA (in my understanding) doesn't force any religion.

Your understanding is incorrect on two levels; first, AA are religious even if in a somewhat generically deistic way, and not secular in and of themselves, second, the actual AA groups in a particular area to which defendants are permitted to choose are often even more specifically religious than AA-on-its-own, to the point of being affiliated with specific established religious institutions other than AA itself.

Re: A Different Path to Fighting Addiction

#33

Post by ambiate »

danesparza wrote: post #28
mckoss wrote: post #25

The galling thing about AA/NA in the US is that judges often mandate attendance as condition for release of a DUI. The problem being, this violates the defendants 1st amendedment rights by the state forcing a religion on him.

Forgive me, I'm not sure which right you're referring to. The text of the first amendment of the United States of America reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." AA (in my unders…

For my pharmacology class, I had to attend multiple AA sessions. From my experience, in two separate regions, AA replaces the addiction with an addiction to social responsibility and moral responsibility (through a deity). In my honest opinion, judges are prescribing religion (or Kohlberg?) as a replacement addiction. My outside observation was cult behaviors with a climbable hierarchy of social power and control.

Re: A Different Path to Fighting Addiction

#34

Post by danesparza »

jqm wrote: post #31
danesparza wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forgive me, I'm not sure which right you're referring to. The text of the first amendment of the United States of America reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." AA (in my unders…

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.." When you force people into a program that references some idea of God you are doing exactly that..

I guess I'm nitpicking, but the amendment mentions Congress, not the judicial branch. I suppose you could challenge the judge with a separate case -- I'm pretty certain our legal system would support that.

Doing a quick Google search, it appears that at least one court has found mandated AA unconstitutional: http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Appeals-court-says-req...

Re: A Different Path to Fighting Addiction

#35

Post by DanBC »

chimeracoder wrote: post #21
DanBC wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not necessarily new, but addiction (even for alcohol or gambling) is closely tied to drug use and thus it's sub-optimally political. That's a shame because research is difficult and also ignored if politicians find it doesn't suit their view. Substitution therapy (eg, methadone instead of heroin) has strong supporters and detractors and it's hard to get good quality research to see whether substitution is bet…

> it's hard to get good quality research to see whether substitution is better than abstinence. How about maintenance? There's ample evidence from the UK, Switzerland, and elsewhere showing that diacetylmorphine maintenance (treating heroin addiction with heroin) is incredibly effective[0][1]. The effectiveness of treating existing users is the primary concern, but a nice bonus is that it also seems to have served as…

I really wish that there was political will and bravery to allow maintainence with heroin and clinical injecting rooms.

That's obviously better for users, but it's better for wider society too. People who are addicted to drugs will take drugs, so forcing them to do so hidden away in places without safe needle disposal means members of the public or cleaning staff risk needle stick injury.

Re: A Different Path to Fighting Addiction

#36

Post by DanBC »

humanrebar wrote: post #19
gizmo686 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People with first hand experience are not in a good posistion to judge how effective something is.

When doing scientific research, absolutely. When making a personal decision, it's foolish to ignore first-hand experience just as it's foolish to ignore advice from experts.

> When making a personal decision, it's foolish to ignore first-hand experience

Isn't this exactly the kind of thinking that makes people believe that homeopathy works?

Re: A Different Path to Fighting Addiction

#37

Post by paulwithap »

silentvoice wrote: post #29

The language of AA and other programs like them have failure as a built-in premise of attendance. Just by insisting on abstinence assumes that failure is the only possible outcome of non-abstinence, however moderated or controlled that non-abstinence is. First and foremost obviously one has to clear themselves of physical addiction, which in most cases should be done with professional medical guidance. Afterwards com…

The entire point of AA is not to focus on the singular behavior of problem drinking, but instead to produce a complete psychic change. The central theme of the "Big Book" is that simply removing the alcohol from an alcoholic is not enough. The alcoholic must instead completely change their way of living and interacting with others. The program is designed to address the root cause of many specific issues the founders saw to be common among alcoholics.

Furthermore, it is highly encouraged to seek outside help (psychiatrists, therapists, etc.) if needed.

Re: A Different Path to Fighting Addiction

#38

Post by HNJohnC »

amasad wrote: post #16

A really new technique for fighting addiction I've been hearing about lately is Ayahuasca. It is a psychedelic brew that originates from the Amazon. I remember watching an episode of Vice (which I can seem to find) following a heroin addict through his Ayahuasca trip to get rid of his addiction and they claimed that it worked and he didn't get back to it.

Ibogaine actually what you're thinking of and I have no idea in the world why you are voted down because it's actually been showing great promise under controlled conditions.

Re: A Different Path to Fighting Addiction

#39

Post by mason55 »

DanBC wrote: post #2

This is a great article. It doesn't ever mention quantities. In England "binge drinking" can be a surprisingly small amount. Risky drinking can be as little as 2 glasses of wine a day. (One large glass of wine (200 ml) at 13 % would be about 2.5 units - two of those is 5 units. That over 5 days is 25 units). We use a "unit of alcohol" as a public health measure. One unit is 125 ml of drink at 8% ABV (Alcohol by Volum…

That chart seems to be missing one of the more common measures - 355mL @ 4-5% (aka a can or bottle of beer).

Re: A Different Path to Fighting Addiction

#40

Post by Stronico »

jqm wrote: post #31
danesparza wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forgive me, I'm not sure which right you're referring to. The text of the first amendment of the United States of America reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." AA (in my unders…

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.." When you force people into a program that references some idea of God you are doing exactly that..

I think the alternative to AA meetings is usually jail time - so it probably is to some degree voluntary.
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