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Amazon's Stressed Out Culture Is Burning Out Employees

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Re: Amazon's Stressed Out Culture Is Burning Out Employees

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The chart has the useful footnote that it, "does not account for overall growth in workforce" which penalizes companies with quickly growing headcounts. I'd also guess Amazon's warehouse staff has more churn that a technology company and they are a large portion of the overall workforce there.

We have a fair number of ex-Amazonians at work and they all complain about the work culture there, so I do believe it may well be that bad.

I have very little insight into the matter. Just noting some limitations and biases in the data presented. Former employees are probably biased sources of data, too.

Anyway, I've heard it's a tough place to work, but some people thrive on it... nothing beyond what's in the Businessweek article.

Re: Amazon's Stressed Out Culture Is Burning Out Employees

#32
post #2

Dear God, is it that bad? Sounds awful. Does Bezos seriously forward any complaints received at jeff@amazon.com to the right person? I'll bet that is panic-inducing.

He generally sends it to a group email for all the Senior VPs. Based on the question in the email, 1 or more of the Senior VPs will take the issue and forward it onto their VPs, which gets forwarded to GMs, directors, etc. and finally ends up in the mailbox of a developer. This is based off my knowledge from late-2003 through 2008. It may have changed by now.

That's almost worse. So instead of nameless Joe E. Dev getting a chewout from Bezos, his boss's boss does, who in turn chews out his boss, who in turn is furious at Joe E. Dev for causing the ruckus. Ouch.

Edit: Wait, I just re-read that. You mean each time Bezos receives a credible complaint from the public, he personally forwards it to all his VPs? Isn't that a massive time hole for his VPs? I'm sure it focuses people on random complaints, but then they spend much less time focusing on making their service(s) better for everyone.

Re: Amazon's Stressed Out Culture Is Burning Out Employees

#33

Ahh, this explains why I, a web developer in the middle of the Canadian Prairies keeps getting hit up by Amazon's recruiters. Quite possibly they've poisoned their local talent pools so much they have to pull in naive people from out of market. Glad I saw this article - now I don't need to fret about whether I should respond to the email. Just the very fact this article was written signals enormous alarm bells for an…

You are very naive if simple blog spam articles like these influence you that much.

For trusting blogspam, maybe. For putting stock in the comments elsewhere under this post, not so much.

Re: Amazon's Stressed Out Culture Is Burning Out Employees

#34

The original article on which this article is based[1] has an interesting chart of median employee tenure for various companies. Amazon is at the bottom, with the median employee leaving after only one year. Google is not much better, with a median employee staying 1.1 years. In contrast, Microsoft employees stay 4 years and IBM employees 6.4 years. [1] http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-10-10/jeff-bezos-a...

Keep in mind that this measures the median tenure of current employees, which significantly biases against companies like Google and Amazon that have done a lot of hiring in the last few years.

A better measure would be the median tenure of employees that left.

Re: Amazon's Stressed Out Culture Is Burning Out Employees

#35
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also did two internship at Amazon and had a different experience. There's probably a ton of people who love their job and a ton who "hate" their job -- it's a huge company and you're gonna find everyone. However, I do think that the culture has it's flaws, namely that the core values include frugality. Working at other startups and large companies I've seen a new way, a much better one. Amazon cuts on the expenses…

> 12 consecutive nights at work It might have been a truely great experience, but just by the sound of it it's hard to endorse as a 'nice to be there' style of work. Did you have to convince your manager to let you do it, or was it just part of the ambient mood to stay so much?

It was more of me wanting to hangout and chill after work, followed by me wanting to work and get stuff done before a launch. I was told many many times to go home and take days off. Just my personality to work a lot.

Re: Amazon's Stressed Out Culture Is Burning Out Employees

#36
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He generally sends it to a group email for all the Senior VPs. Based on the question in the email, 1 or more of the Senior VPs will take the issue and forward it onto their VPs, which gets forwarded to GMs, directors, etc. and finally ends up in the mailbox of a developer. This is based off my knowledge from late-2003 through 2008. It may have changed by now.

That's almost worse. So instead of nameless Joe E. Dev getting a chewout from Bezos, his boss's boss does, who in turn chews out his boss, who in turn is furious at Joe E. Dev for causing the ruckus. Ouch. Edit: Wait, I just re-read that. You mean each time Bezos receives a credible complaint from the public, he personally forwards it to all his VPs? Isn't that a massive time hole for his VPs? I'm sure it focuses peo…

I don't know. I can only comment on the "?" that I received and answered. Looking through the email headers, it started with Jeff, went through a few different groups, my manager, and finally me. I don't know if it was like this for all complaints.

And the lack of focus was the problem. Depending on when I got the email, I would look for root cause and other affected customers. But there were times I was operating on 2 maybe 3 hours of sleep and was just like "fuck it. I'm fixing this single order and moving on".

Please take into account, I was in Supply Chain and it has (had?) probably millions of lines of legacy code. Even after being on the team for 4 years, there were parts of the code base that were just voodoo. I would look at the code and be like "this can't possibly work".

Edit: fixed some autocorrect mistakes

Re: Amazon's Stressed Out Culture Is Burning Out Employees

#37
Engineer currently working at Amazon here, and I agree with most of what's in the article. Obviously, there will be different opinions on Amazon depending on what team you work for. I can speak in detail for my team in particular, and the biggest complaint that employees reported in the annual survey is the high operational load, which cuts deeply into your personal life for a week once in a few months. In a nutshell, you have to cancel all activities during your oncall week and you will most likely get awoken almost every night of the week. Random stuff happens (host failures, overload and random internet weather/congestion) and there's a certain stress that hangs over your head as you are the primary person for keeping the service up and running at all times. Although...I do have to say operational load has gotten better over the past year as we've made it a goal of ours to reduce the number of pages we get.

Most of my friends who don't work in tech think that Amazon must be a great place to work for since it is a pretty successful tech giant and they think all tech giants give amazing perks and benefits to their employees (probably due to the standards set by places like Google and Microsoft). But this frugality to their employees is one of the main keys to Amazon's success. Amazon's goal is to make the customer happy, and they will be frugal on expenses that don't contribute to that goal. I mean, why would the customers care whether employees get free lunches everyday? This type of thinking is much different than a place like Google's where the obsession is towards making the employees happy, which in turn makes more productive employees.

As for stack ranking employees, it depends on the team you work for. My team in particular does stack rank people. Basically if you get ranked in the bottom 10% bucket for two years in a row, then you're fired. Yeah I know this system sucks sometimes as an employee but it does do the job of keeping people on their toes and making sure the quality of the people on the team is high. I personally tend to not like to work with people who coast at work and produce results at a slow pace, so I have no complaints about the stack ranking.

The pay is actually quite decent for a new grad. You might get slightly less in absolute pay from a place like Google or Facebook, but this is offseted by the lower cost of living in Seattle and also the no state income tax in Washington. But the pay on average for mid-level and senior engineers do lag significantly behind that of other tech giants. Again, this goes hand-in-hand with Amazon's concept of frugality and lower costs for the customer.

I would agree that Amazon is not always a fun place to work for due to high pressure to produce results and also the pager duty. If you want to have good work/life balance, then Amazon is not the place for you. Some of my co-workers originally from Microsoft who have gotten used to the comfortable lifestyle there are finding this out the hard way. Those who enjoy the relatively fast-paced work environment and the great potential for individual growth are the ones that are most successful and stay at Amazon the longest, while I've seen others who have more or less burned out by 2-3 years and have left the company.

In all, now is a great time to join Amazon as it's experiencing unprecedented growth and more buildings are being constructed now just to have enough office space for everybody. If you were to think about working for Amazon though, I would recommend some teams in AWS as the projects there are more technologically interesting and the hiring bar (and in turn quality of your peers) is higher than most other teams at Amazon.

Re: Amazon's Stressed Out Culture Is Burning Out Employees

#38
post #15
post #9

So out of curiosity, which major tech companies operate on a stack ranking system? It seems that Microsoft has gotten the most flack for it in the past, but it seems that many other companies also have it. Here's what I've heard, from different employees at different companies: * Amazon - top 20%/70%/bottom 10% buckets * Facebook - definite bucketed review system every six months * Google - unsure if bucketed, but pe…

Google's performance reviews are every 6 months. No bucketing. Well, you get to know if you are "needs improvement", "meets expectations", or "exceeds expectations", and you can pretend those are buckets if you try hard enough.

Does it lead to employees/groups competing with each other to keep their job? I've experienced that at one of my gigs and it just kills my morale. I have a habit of helping co-workers. Then, I notice that I don't always get any acknowledgement in front of mgmt. At the end of the year, the people doing perf reviews don't seem to always know what role I had in some of the successes. At a previous employer where this stack ranking stuff was not prevalent, my coworkers were very generous with their sharing of credit (as was I). As time goes on, I feel I am being a naive person and have no one to blame but myself.

Re: Amazon's Stressed Out Culture Is Burning Out Employees

#39
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google's performance reviews are every 6 months. No bucketing. Well, you get to know if you are "needs improvement", "meets expectations", or "exceeds expectations", and you can pretend those are buckets if you try hard enough.

Does it lead to employees/groups competing with each other to keep their job? I've experienced that at one of my gigs and it just kills my morale. I have a habit of helping co-workers. Then, I notice that I don't always get any acknowledgement in front of mgmt. At the end of the year, the people doing perf reviews don't seem to always know what role I had in some of the successes. At a previous employer where this st…

I think this is a key comment. It's not so much that the concept of a stack ranking system is bad in a vacuum. But nothing happens in a vacuum, and individuals will nececcesarily adapt their behaviour according to that which will keep them safe. In a nutshell, the effect of a stack ranking system is to discourage collaboration and hurt camaraderie.
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