It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays • Hacker News Board

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#31

Post by ZenoArrow » Sun, Mar 23, 2014, 7:53 PM UTC

rverghes wrote: post #2

I bet half the audience sees this as an indictment of tuition increases, and the the other half sees this as an indictment of the lack of minimum wage increases. I know what the author is trying to convey, but I'm not sure he has the best metric.

I see it as another sign that colleges are ripe for a shake up.

Colleges offer five things (from an academic point of view):

1. Access to information. 2. Directed learning. 3. Time to explore your own interests. 4. Research facilities. 5. Qualifications.

Access to information is easy enough outside college (books, Internet, etc...). Lack of research facilities is only really a hindrance if you're trying to study a hard science or engineering. Time to explore your own interests is easy enough without college, in the worst case you could borrow money, not pay college tuition fees, and study just as long.

So that leaves two remaining benefits (and arguably only one benefit to real learning); directed learning and qualifications. The college system directs you towards the ideas in a field that are deemed as key to understanding the subject more fully. Having access to mentors gives the students guidance and reassurance. Qualifications are seen as the reward for the work (not by everyone, it's possible to study for the fun of it too, but that just preaching to the choir on a site like HN).

The requirement for colleges for certain qualifications would be easy to fix. The main factor that is lacking from non-college learning is the directed learning aspect. It can be fun to learn a little bit of everything, but colleges can bring you up to speed in something quicker because of this guru-led focus. If/when mavens from a field are simple to interact with, efficient learning is unlocked. The "hacker" community is a great example of this, we have all the resources at our disposal, including access to the leading lights, no other group has it quite as good. Now imagine how other fields could grow with the same blend of learning opportunities that our group has.

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#32

Post by eigenvector » Sun, Mar 23, 2014, 7:54 PM UTC

AaronFriel wrote: post #25

The solution though, isn't to stop providing money to students for college. If you don't have Pell Grants, Stafford loans and the like, lower income bracket individuals would never be able to afford college. There is a simple fact: I could not pay my way through my Midwest university education without these things. I will graduate and be in debt, but I'll be better off having done it. Certainly the experience is wort…

> If people were so rational, everyone would go to college because the expected value of college still dwarfs the cost of college.

No, the expected value of a college degree is a result of a labour supply/demand curve and it wouldn't remain the same if you drastically shifted the supply curve. If everyone went to college, the additional earning power of a college graduate relative to the mean would be zero.

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#33

Post by jdreaver » Sun, Mar 23, 2014, 7:55 PM UTC

AaronFriel wrote: post #25

The solution though, isn't to stop providing money to students for college. If you don't have Pell Grants, Stafford loans and the like, lower income bracket individuals would never be able to afford college. There is a simple fact: I could not pay my way through my Midwest university education without these things. I will graduate and be in debt, but I'll be better off having done it. Certainly the experience is wort…

> I see several people putting forth the argument that people are the most efficient at allocating money for themselves. That is not true except in an Ayn Rand novel.

I've never read an Ayn Rand novel, yet I still agree with that statement. I guess if you call someone an Ayn Rand supporter, that is supposed to discredit them? It's a pretty basic economic principle. If you take $10000 from your bank account, you are less likely to impulsively purchase a new car than if someone walked up to your house and gave you $10000. Seriously, it's super simple, and has nothing to do with Ayn Rand.

> If people were so rational, everyone would go to college because the expected value of college still dwarfs the cost of college.

Many people get off fine without college. You are touting your preferences as the only "rational" set of preferences. There is more to life than the "expected value of college."

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#34

Post by bunderbunder » Sun, Mar 23, 2014, 7:56 PM UTC

bequanna wrote: post #19

jdreaver wrote: post #17

We have to ask ourselves why college is so expensive. When some people read articles like this, they call for more government aid to students. "We need to help young, hard working students from unprivileged backgrounds to pay for college!" Their hearts are certainly in the right place, and it isn't an unreasonable idea at first glance. However, could this idea be part of the problem? Maybe giving people free money fo…

> It goes to inflating the administrative staffs and inflating the salaries of the highest ranked members of that staff. This. Bureaucratic bloat, no accountability and terrible efficiency. Many Universities are the largest employers in their state. Do our Universities exist to be Research and Educational institutions, or to employ armies of admin workers that push papers?

Looking at my local university's budget, research and educational costs still account for most of the budget. But research costs are becoming enormous - they're spending over 1/3 of the budget on research, and only half as much on education.

Which isn't to say that we shouldn't be spending money on research, or that universities shouldn't be the ones to do it. But considering that government funding for research has been stagnating lately, I wonder if a less-explored factor in the situation hasn't been that we've slacked off on investing in research and are sticking our kids with the bill instead.

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#35

Post by Suncho » Sun, Mar 23, 2014, 7:56 PM UTC

jdreaver wrote: post #17

We have to ask ourselves why college is so expensive. When some people read articles like this, they call for more government aid to students. "We need to help young, hard working students from unprivileged backgrounds to pay for college!" Their hearts are certainly in the right place, and it isn't an unreasonable idea at first glance. However, could this idea be part of the problem? Maybe giving people free money fo…

I think a lot of the rise in tuition has to do with jobs. Society tells people they need to earn a living through a job. This makes people desperate for jobs to the extent that they'll generally pay whatever it takes to maximize their job prospects.

So, basically you have a situation in which demand for the best possible education is inelastic. Pretty much everybody wants it and is willing to pay anything they can for it. If you offer students more money to spend on their education, they naturally will.

That means that schools are in the very powerful position of deciding who deserves the privilege of an education. But, at the same time, they're competing with each other for the best students. If money is no object for the students, you can bet that schools will spend as much as possible to get the "best" students. Fancy buildings aren't just there to impress donors. They're there to impress prospective students.

I think MOOCs will help and basic income will help. High tuition isn't a problem if you don't need to go to school. You don't need to go to school if you don't need a job and you can educate yourself elsewhere.

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#36

Post by _delirium » Sun, Mar 23, 2014, 7:57 PM UTC

eigenvector wrote: post #32

AaronFriel wrote: post #25

The solution though, isn't to stop providing money to students for college. If you don't have Pell Grants, Stafford loans and the like, lower income bracket individuals would never be able to afford college. There is a simple fact: I could not pay my way through my Midwest university education without these things. I will graduate and be in debt, but I'll be better off having done it. Certainly the experience is wort…

> If people were so rational, everyone would go to college because the expected value of college still dwarfs the cost of college. No, the expected value of a college degree is a result of a labour supply/demand curve and it wouldn't remain the same if you drastically shifted the supply curve. If everyone went to college, the additional earning power of a college graduate relative to the mean would be zero.

This is true within a fixed labor market, but it gets more complex with globalization. If a country's educational mix changes, its position vis-a-vis the world labor market can also change. How to manage that in a way that produces a net-positive outcome is more complex, though.

The Danish educational strategy is more or less betting on "going upmarket" via levels of education that are much higher than the global norm. Denmark can't compete on price, so the idea is to get everyone a high level of education and position the entire country as essentially a high-end consulting/services firm. Hence a goal to have 50% of people have bachelor's degrees by 20xx (I don't remember the target date). Part of hitting those numbers is maintaining the structure where not only is there no tuition, but students are paid to attend university (about $900/month if in good standing and studying full-time).

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#37

Post by dnautics » Sun, Mar 23, 2014, 7:58 PM UTC

AaronFriel wrote: post #25

The solution though, isn't to stop providing money to students for college. If you don't have Pell Grants, Stafford loans and the like, lower income bracket individuals would never be able to afford college. There is a simple fact: I could not pay my way through my Midwest university education without these things. I will graduate and be in debt, but I'll be better off having done it. Certainly the experience is wort…

If people were so rational, everyone would go to college because the expected value of college still dwarfs the cost of college. Even for those individuals who would graduate with a significant amount of debt, it is far more worth it to have a degree than not.

Those calculations are by necessity based on estimates based on earlier generations of college graduates. Moreover, those results have a selection bias of people applying to college.

Finally, the reason why you can't implement your plan in the US is because it totally violates the 13th amendment. Do you really think it's a good idea to give colleges fractional ownership of a person?

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#38

Post by jdreaver » Sun, Mar 23, 2014, 7:58 PM UTC

brudgers wrote: post #28

jdreaver wrote: post #17

We have to ask ourselves why college is so expensive. When some people read articles like this, they call for more government aid to students. "We need to help young, hard working students from unprivileged backgrounds to pay for college!" Their hearts are certainly in the right place, and it isn't an unreasonable idea at first glance. However, could this idea be part of the problem? Maybe giving people free money fo…

In the US, few students get much free money these days. Instead they get loans which charge hefty origination fees - like 5 points, and which are almost impossible to discharge via bankruptcy...despite the fact that many of them are backed by insurance and those which are not insured typically compound interest during the time the student is in school (typically on the full principle). The bloat has not been fueled b…

I agree. Most of those loans, however, are sponsored by the government and can't be defaulted on. No normal lender would give an 18 year old $50,000 to get a degree in anthropology, because they are unlikely to get it back. When the student is legally obligated to pay it back, then there is much little risk to the lender.

If defaulting on student loans were possible, then the cost of college would decrease.

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#39

Post by jdreaver » Sun, Mar 23, 2014, 8:01 PM UTC

HarryHirsch wrote: post #29

bequanna wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It goes to inflating the administrative staffs and inflating the salaries of the highest ranked members of that staff. This. Bureaucratic bloat, no accountability and terrible efficiency. Many Universities are the largest employers in their state. Do our Universities exist to be Research and Educational institutions, or to employ armies of admin workers that push papers?

It's popular here to blame the growth of administrative and non-teaching staff on a self-serving bureacracy, but I don't think that's the case, it is due to circumstances. The size of IT infrastructure has grown immensely compared to 30 years back, so you need people to take care of that. My department has four IT support people, and they carry a full workload. The amount of foreign students has grown, consequently y…

Everyone pays for these services, but not everyone uses them. For example, I had to pay a ridiculous $600 per year for the recreation center fee in college. I never once stepped in that place, and they wouldn't let me not pay it. I also never used my college's career center, and I have a job.

The services you listed are great; I'm not saying gyms and career centers are bad at all. The problem is that everyone in the school is forced to pay for them. The bloat comes because they get more funding than they need.

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#40

Post by dnautics » Sun, Mar 23, 2014, 8:03 PM UTC

jdreaver wrote: post #33

AaronFriel wrote: post #25

The solution though, isn't to stop providing money to students for college. If you don't have Pell Grants, Stafford loans and the like, lower income bracket individuals would never be able to afford college. There is a simple fact: I could not pay my way through my Midwest university education without these things. I will graduate and be in debt, but I'll be better off having done it. Certainly the experience is wort…

> I see several people putting forth the argument that people are the most efficient at allocating money for themselves. That is not true except in an Ayn Rand novel. I've never read an Ayn Rand novel, yet I still agree with that statement. I guess if you call someone an Ayn Rand supporter, that is supposed to discredit them? It's a pretty basic economic principle. If you take $10000 from your bank account, you are l…

I thought the idea that people were better at allocating money from themselves is more like:

are you better off if I give you $1k no string attached or $1k specifying down to the cent how you are to use it?

Generally speaking people know what their needs are and how to balance them more than complete strangers or even, often, friends. Yes, people have weaknesses, but to try to rule over their weaknesses is highly paternalistic and demeaning. Moreover because of the fungibility of money, in the end often the person will find a way to spend an equivalent batch of the same money in the way they would have anyways.