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Ukrainian Protesters Hold Up Mirrors to Police

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Re: Ukrainian Protesters Hold Up Mirrors to Police

#31

Post by free652 »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #26

One thing to keep in mind about Ukraine, is that over half the country speaks Russian, and are very firmly pro-Russian. Furthermore, the current government was democratically elected (there were even western observers who confirmed the fairness of the most recent elections), after years of in-fighting amongst the 'Orange Revolution' crowd. The protests also happen to be timed ahead of elections, no doubt in part beca…

I wouldn't say that Russian speaking Ukrainians are "firmly" pro-Russian, I'd say its far from the truth. Where did you get that notion? At least not in Odessa.

Most people just want to have better lives. But their lives got worse with every year.

Re: Ukrainian Protesters Hold Up Mirrors to Police

#32

Post by moocowduckquack »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #26

One thing to keep in mind about Ukraine, is that over half the country speaks Russian, and are very firmly pro-Russian. Furthermore, the current government was democratically elected (there were even western observers who confirmed the fairness of the most recent elections), after years of in-fighting amongst the 'Orange Revolution' crowd. The protests also happen to be timed ahead of elections, no doubt in part beca…

there were even western observers who confirmed the fairness of the most recent elections

Oh really?

Summary statement: “Preparations for Ukraine’s parliamentary elections on 28 October are taking place in an environment of procedural irregularities, widespread vote-buying, limitations on freedom of speech, and a lack of effective consideration of election disputes.”

Summary statement: “Mission Canada concludes that – taking into account its interim reports, the findings of Election Day, and the subsequent problems in transfer of results and tabulation of data – Ukraine’s parliamentary elections fell short of meeting international standards, and that these elections marked a regression in Ukraine’s democratic development.”

http://www.canadem.ca/home/en/deployment/election-observatio...

edit - The link in the comment below is about the elections in 2010. The quotes above are about the elections in 2012. I will leave it as an exercise for the reader to determine which of those dates is the more recent.

Re: Ukrainian Protesters Hold Up Mirrors to Police

#33

Post by hawkharris »

This raises a complicated question: assuming that the SWAT members are part of an immoral cause — not necessarily true, but let's assume it — should we blame the SWAT members...or the policymakers who command them to the front lines?

The same can be said for U.S. soldiers who volunteer to fight in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Maybe they were unaware of the thousands of civilian deaths that would occur as a result of the American occupation of those countries. Maybe they were swept into a whirlwind, powerless to prevent those casualties, because of policymakers.

I expect that this will be a very unpopular statement, but maybe holding those on the front lines (e.g. soldiers and SWAT members) accountable will help create pressure against immoral government crackdowns. Maybe we should be critical of both those on the front lines and those making the strategic decisions.

Re: Ukrainian Protesters Hold Up Mirrors to Police

#34

Post by philwelch »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #23
philwelch wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess the "Orange Revolution" didn't work out in the long run.

Not really. The 'heroes' of the Orange Revolution turned against each other (see Yushchenko vs Tymoshenko drama) , raided the country's coffers, ruined its economy, and lost badly in the most recent elections.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Re: Ukrainian Protesters Hold Up Mirrors to Police

#35

Post by Mikeb85 »

moocowduckquack wrote: post #32
Mikeb85 wrote: post #26

One thing to keep in mind about Ukraine, is that over half the country speaks Russian, and are very firmly pro-Russian. Furthermore, the current government was democratically elected (there were even western observers who confirmed the fairness of the most recent elections), after years of in-fighting amongst the 'Orange Revolution' crowd. The protests also happen to be timed ahead of elections, no doubt in part beca…

there were even western observers who confirmed the fairness of the most recent elections Oh really? Summary statement: “Preparations for Ukraine’s parliamentary elections on 28 October are taking place in an environment of procedural irregularities, widespread vote-buying, limitations on freedom of speech, and a lack of effective consideration of election disputes.” Summary statement: “Mission Canada concludes that…

http://euobserver.com/foreign/29431

> edit - The link in the comment below is about the elections in 2010. The quotes above are about the elections in 2012. I will leave it as an exercise for the reader to determine which of those dates is the more recent.

Perhaps which is more pertinent to a discussion about Yanukovych's 'dictatorial' ways?

Fact is, Yanukovych was elected in elections that were praised by the West - in 2010. In 2012 there were political factors and ideology at play that made it more useful to denounce the elections...

Re: Ukrainian Protesters Hold Up Mirrors to Police

#36

Post by masklinn »

hawkharris wrote: post #33

This raises a complicated question: assuming that the SWAT members are part of an immoral cause — not necessarily true, but let's assume it — should we blame the SWAT members...or the policymakers who command them to the front lines? The same can be said for U.S. soldiers who volunteer to fight in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Maybe they were unaware of the thousands of civilian deaths that would occur as a result of the…

> This raises a complicated question: assuming that the SWAT members are part of an immoral cause — not necessarily true, but let's assume it — should we blame the SWAT members...or the policymakers who command them to the front lines?

Going with military rules and Nuremberg precedents, likely both.

Command responsibility doctrine makes superiors responsible for the crimes of their troops (let alone for their own unlawful orders) and superior orders defences started falling after WWII, especially during the Nuremberg trials:

> The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him.

the 1998 Rome statute tends to confirm, although a superior order defence may still work under it:

> 1. The fact that a crime within the jurisdiction of the Court has been committed by a person pursuant to an order of a Government or of a superior, whether military or civilian, shall not relieve that person of criminal responsibility unless:

> (a) The person was under a legal obligation to obey orders of the Government or the superior in question;

> (b) The person did not know that the order was unlawful; and

> (c) The order was not manifestly unlawful.

Superiors ought be held accountable either way, boots can escape if they demonstrate that the order was not manifestly unlawful.

Re: Ukrainian Protesters Hold Up Mirrors to Police

#37

Post by new_test »

free652 wrote: post #31
Mikeb85 wrote: post #26

One thing to keep in mind about Ukraine, is that over half the country speaks Russian, and are very firmly pro-Russian. Furthermore, the current government was democratically elected (there were even western observers who confirmed the fairness of the most recent elections), after years of in-fighting amongst the 'Orange Revolution' crowd. The protests also happen to be timed ahead of elections, no doubt in part beca…

I wouldn't say that Russian speaking Ukrainians are "firmly" pro-Russian, I'd say its far from the truth. Where did you get that notion? At least not in Odessa. Most people just want to have better lives. But their lives got worse with every year.

I grew up in south eastern Ukraine (as Russian as Ukraine gets). I'm still in touch with some of my childhood friends, and the views are pretty split in my hometown. One friend that I went to school with always posts all kinds of pro-Europe anti-Yanukovich petitions online. At the same time I just received an email from another friend this morning and his opinion is "Those fucking protesters are turning Kiev into shit, good thing we don't have that in our town. We did have some but they got shit thrown at them [literally what he said], so they sit at home now." Basically his opinion is that it's western governments trying to manipulate Ukrainians.

Re: Ukrainian Protesters Hold Up Mirrors to Police

#39

Post by ris »

aaronem wrote: post #9

> You can imagine what was going through their minds as they saw themselves in their ridiculous garb and dehumanized condition. "At least they're not throwing things." Somewhat related, I'm curious about the veracity of a "news item" for which the second Google result is a blog [1] whose header includes a lengthy quote from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and which appears largely to have been promulgated by a c…

Yes, it could have done without the Dave Spart-esque video.

Re: Ukrainian Protesters Hold Up Mirrors to Police

#40

Post by scarecrowbob »

hawkharris wrote: post #33

This raises a complicated question: assuming that the SWAT members are part of an immoral cause — not necessarily true, but let's assume it — should we blame the SWAT members...or the policymakers who command them to the front lines? The same can be said for U.S. soldiers who volunteer to fight in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Maybe they were unaware of the thousands of civilian deaths that would occur as a result of the…

Just anecdotally, most of the folks my age who joined the military did so not out of a sense of duty, but strictly to better their chances, for the same reason they might go to college.

I don't have a lot of respect for that particular decision, and that is not a popular sentiment where I live. I believe that mercenaries, which is more or less what they are, are morally culpable. But I, too, made bad decisions when I was 20, and it's even cloudier when there are a lot of folks telling you that you're making a good decision and that the nay sayers are basically cowardly traitors.

That said, I don't know how useful it is to attack the problem from that direction; between the entrenched fantasies about how legitimate that violence is and the real social and economic circumstances that push people into those kinds of decisions.

There is plenty of blame to go around, if we are okay saying that this use of force is in fact immoral, but in my opinion it doesn't do a lot of good to blame anyone, beyond analysis... all we can really do is look at what we ourselves are doing and decide what we change directly or in concert with our fellow travelers.

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