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ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

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Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#31
post #23

Cue the libertarian versus non-libertarian mudwrestling. It has become increasingly clear to me that the ills of the U.S. pogroms against some recreational drugs are due in no small part to the conversion of the criminal justice system to a for-profit industry. As long as the jobs and budgets are tied to the number of criminals processed rather than the peace and order produced, cop cadres will titrate the frequency…

That's interesting. Is your issue with the for-profit criminal justice system that it's for-profit, or is it with the laws it upholds to bring the profits? In other words, would this still be a problem if all laws upheld were, to your mind, reasonable?

Not the OP, but I'll take a crack at it. The problem is that creating order (or, more generally speaking, rehabilitating unorderly parts of society) and making money can sometimes be adversarial processes, thus creating a conflict of interest.

Since it has become profitable (for private jails/prisons) to put people in jail and keep them in jail, there is a clear incentive to punish lesser crimes more severely and to not rehabilitate jailed people fully with hopes of them becoming a repeat offender.

Therefore, the problem is that privatization of the criminal justice system is at odds with what a criminal justice system should hope achieve: order, appropriate punishment, and rehabilitation of those who break the law. In fact, I would argue that it incentivizes almost the exact opposite.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#32
post #29
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would people flip out if there was a bill proposed to require all guns in the US to have a GPS tracker? As a gun control advocate who also owns guns, yes, I would flip the f * out. While I have no problem if the government knows I own a gun (they know I own a car), Putting a GPS tracker on it would result in two things: 1. The government would know where I am at all times (I carry my Kahr CM-9 everywhere that allow…

You already carry a cellphone, I presume. Also, I am against most forms of gun control, being otherwise very liberal in my worldview. However, I cannot possibly understand why a developer would need to carry a gun at all times. You are inviting trouble with that, and more likely to die to your own gun than you are to protect yourself from some bad guys. If you want to carry a gun with you, I support your right to do…

"Objectively wrong play" is a bit too much.

Carrying a gun does have benefits, and it does have drawbacks. Lots of room for this to be subjective, and lots of room for someone to subjectively find this to be a good thing to do.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#33

This is what you get when people keep on voting in big government types all in the name of safety, security and social justice.

Size is irrelevant. When you declare your mission is a 'war on drugs' you're going to end up losing, plain and simple. Meanwhile, very, very large government programs like the NHS do well and provide healthcare to millions in an affordable way with great outcomes. There's something very lazy about arguing about government size. Its just dumb simpleminded platitudes that libertarians pat each other on the back for, bu…

No matter where you come down on the political spectrum, examining the correct role of government in our lives is a worthwhile pursuit. Painting these debates as "lazy" and "simpleminded" makes no sense.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#34
post #18

Moral of the story? Police and federal agents must be more transparent and accountable for their actions and expenditures. The whole concept of "spend money so that our budget doesn't shrink next year" has go to be fixed also. I don't know a solution other than having more auditors and efficiency experts (GAO, gao.gov). Would people flip out if there was a bill proposed to require all guns in the US to have a GPS tra…

    Would people flip out if there was a bill proposed to require all guns in the US to have a GPS tracker?
Ohh god yes, they would. I live in Colorado, and 2 of our state reps got recalled when the democrats limited clip size to 15, and required more background checks on purchase.

That restriction got people so angry that they did mid-term recalls. Not even just waiting till next election.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#35
post #23

Cue the libertarian versus non-libertarian mudwrestling. It has become increasingly clear to me that the ills of the U.S. pogroms against some recreational drugs are due in no small part to the conversion of the criminal justice system to a for-profit industry. As long as the jobs and budgets are tied to the number of criminals processed rather than the peace and order produced, cop cadres will titrate the frequency…

That's interesting. Is your issue with the for-profit criminal justice system that it's for-profit, or is it with the laws it upholds to bring the profits? In other words, would this still be a problem if all laws upheld were, to your mind, reasonable?

Yes.

A profit motive corrupts in favour of profit. I dont want that in a justice system which is supposed to be not corrupt.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#36
I don't own a gun, but let's assume I become a gun enthusiast and decide to go buy "something cool"

I go to my local gun store, which is actually a front for the ATF. In my mind, looks like a bunch of seedy characters, but i assume they're trustworthy because, natch, they have a license from the ATF.

I strike up a conversation with the bearded, scraggly guy behind the counter. What would I like? I don't know. How about a shotgun? As we talk, he talks more and more about "cool" guns. Perhaps sawed-off barrels, or big loads. At some point, we cross the line between talking about legal guns and illegal guns.

Now here's the thing: beats the shit out of me where we crossed that line. I'm trusting the guy behind the counter to be a reliable guide to what can be bought or sold. From the ATF standpoint, however, I am fully aware of the intricacies of firearm law and am now soliciting them to commit a crime.

A few months go by. Then the ATF comes knocking at my door with a warrant, a hi-res video, and I go to jail. Perhaps for many years.

Now we can argue whether they would actually prosecute or not, or what any sane prosecutor would ask for solicitation, but the fact of the matter is, in the ATF's view, I'm a hardened gun criminal. It'll go on my record, and this will become part of the intelligence files at ATF.

If you can't see what's wrong with this picture, you've lost your moral compass.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#37

So, this article is not biased at all ... It's pretty shoddy reporting/editorializing. These zany anecdotes are pretty outlandish but why is there only one or two sentences per anecdote? Surely, in this anti-Obama rant, we could hav some details?

The linked article has been changed to an article with much more information. Which details were you interested in?

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#38

Cue the libertarian versus non-libertarian mudwrestling. It has become increasingly clear to me that the ills of the U.S. pogroms against some recreational drugs are due in no small part to the conversion of the criminal justice system to a for-profit industry. As long as the jobs and budgets are tied to the number of criminals processed rather than the peace and order produced, cop cadres will titrate the frequency…

It's quite a bit more complicated than that.

The two most important graphs for understanding U.S. law enforcement:

Total state and federal prisoners: http://www.sentencingproject.org/images/photo/State%20and%20....

Total violent crime: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-zJiRb6FKYgM/Tqil-T4fLpI/AAAAAAAAAF....

Violent crime increases almost 5x from the mid 1960's to the early 1990's. The number of state and federal prisoners consequently increases 5x during that period. That's not the result of "for-profit justice." That's the result of people supporting aggressive enforcement and incarceration in response to skyrocketing violent crime.

The real problem is: what happens after 1995? Violent crime drops by over a third. Yet, prison population continues to grow until it plateaus in the mid-2000's. That's where jobs and budgets come in. They make it difficult to dismantle the whole apparatus, and indeed, to really convey to the public that crime has in fact dramatically decreased.

That said, I think the solution to this is time. U.S. prison population has been trending down for the last several years. The baby boomer generation's attitudes towards crime were forged during the 1970's and 1980's as crime skyrocketed, but that attitude will start to die out as the boomers do.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#39

I don't own a gun, but let's assume I become a gun enthusiast and decide to go buy "something cool" I go to my local gun store, which is actually a front for the ATF. In my mind, looks like a bunch of seedy characters, but i assume they're trustworthy because, natch, they have a license from the ATF. I strike up a conversation with the bearded, scraggly guy behind the counter. What would I like? I don't know. How abo…

You don't even have to bring morality into the equation. There's functional problems with this sort of operation, for precisely the reason you outlined. The legal system assumes that people can figure out, based on social context, what the law is, or at least know when they need to consult a lawyer. Actively misleading people, in the guise of licensed dealers, upends this assumption. Whether it's moral or immoral, it's inconsistent with the most basic assumptions on which our legal system relies.

Re: ATF uses rogue tactics in storefront stings across nation

#40

I don't own a gun, but let's assume I become a gun enthusiast and decide to go buy "something cool" I go to my local gun store, which is actually a front for the ATF. In my mind, looks like a bunch of seedy characters, but i assume they're trustworthy because, natch, they have a license from the ATF. I strike up a conversation with the bearded, scraggly guy behind the counter. What would I like? I don't know. How abo…

"Now here's the thing: beats the shit out of me where we crossed that line."

And that's one of the most frightening aspects of modern-day law enforcement tactics, especially when considered in light of the surveillance techniques now at their disposal.

The standard presumption that everyone is fully aware of the legal boundaries of daily activities falls to pieces when someone is in virgin territory. In your hypothetical case, you've never bought a gun before, and you're probably a little nervous and out of your element. You're easy prey for a sting of this nature, and your nervousness would "read," in the context of the surveillance video, as criminal intent.

Ironically enough, it's the law-abiding citizens who are least likely to be aware of the intricacies of criminal law. The real criminals would cover their bases. So by its very nature, a sting like this one produces perverse outcomes. It over-selects for innocent bystanders and petty criminals, and filters out the savvier criminals who are actually the locus of the problem ostensibly being combated.

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