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Soy's Negative Effects (2009)

menshealth.com

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Re: Soy's Negative Effects (2009)

#31

Post by rdtsc »

lambda wrote: post #15

This is why I am always extremely skeptical of any kind of diet extremism. I cringe any time someone labels something a "superfood", as that means they are likely to encourage eating it far beyond the point where it is healthy. I also cringe any time a dietary recommendation to remove a major macronutrient (fat, carbs) from your diet; that tends to lead to extreme compensation with something else, which can also be u…

> This is why I am always extremely skeptical of any kind of diet extremism.

That's my approach as well. Single ingredient things are hard though. Take meat or eggs. It is one ingredient but depending what that animal ate or drugs they've been injected, it is also hard to know what you are getting. At some point I just give up and stop worrying about it. Some people get way too obsessed about it, someone I know "owns" a fraction of a cow get accessed to unpasteurized milk, that is fine by me but not the level I would go to.

Re: Soy's Negative Effects (2009)

#32

Post by lambda »

cko wrote: post #24

This might be completely hypothetical, but might there be a genetic component? I'm convinced (based on my heavy soy intake as an Asian male with no ill effects) that some people are less prone to what the guy in the article experienced.

Yes, various people have posted links to a variety of studies that have been done, and it seems like there is a good deal of individual variation, and that these kinds of effects only happen to people who are particularly prone and replace the vast majority of their protein intake with soy.

This has a summary of several pieces of research:

http://examine.com/faq/is-soy-good-or-bad-for-me.html

Re: Soy's Negative Effects (2009)

#33

Post by jacques_chester »

dhughes wrote: post #22
theboss wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

exactly (T)his. i (k)new you would beat me to posting. even control + f'd (Two) see if y(o)u beat me to postin(G) I'm allergic to milk and have been taking soy protein, soy milk, etc. for years with no problems. My evidence is anecdotal but silverhydra's is not. If anyone thinks there is a problem with soy, go read examine.

Why even drink soy "milk" why not water or some other liquid, or other animal milk you may not be allergic to? It seems to me people are compelled to have a milk substitute whether due to allergy or ethical reasons as if we need to have something called milk in our fridges. It reminds me of the tofurky a soy shaped turkey supposedly tastes like turkey, it would be like a person who eats a lot of meat making a carrot…

For any dietary scheme built on avoiding certain foods (vegetarian, vegan, gluten-free, keto, paelo etc), there is a thriving cottage industry of substitutes.

Some folk have an ethical objection to milk but want something that vaguely resembles it. For such people, whitened liquid cardboard -- soy juice -- is a popular alternative. Other people drink almond juice or rice juice.

Edit: and some people have allergies or intolerance to things in milk. I'm lactose intolerant, so I'm covered by lactose-free milk. But some people are genuinely intolerant of milk proteins etc.

Re: Soy's Negative Effects (2009)

#34

Post by shawnee_ »

cko wrote: post #24

This might be completely hypothetical, but might there be a genetic component? I'm convinced (based on my heavy soy intake as an Asian male with no ill effects) that some people are less prone to what the guy in the article experienced.

Yes, but not the genetics of humans. My guess would be that the genetics of the soybean plants would be a more likely culprit for any strange hormonal reactions in men:

HT soybeans went from 17 percent of U.S. soybean acreage in 1997 to 68 percent in 2001 and 93 percent in 2013

source: http://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/adoption-of-geneticall...

The reality is that soybeans aren't genetically modified for nutritional reasons; they are modified for economic reasons, and GE foods haven't been around long enough for us to really know what kind of side-effects come from optimizing for the herbicide-tolerant "economics" side of GE.

Re: Soy's Negative Effects (2009)

#35

Post by rdtsc »

vinbreau wrote: post #28

I have a friend who's son is being raised primarily by his ex-wife. They have a good relationship even divorced, especially where the son is concerned. Recently the boy stayed with his father for a week, during which he took him to the gym to get in shape. He's a little fat and his father wanted to help him work on his self-image. At the gym, the boy would not remove his shirt, and when he finally acquiesced and did…

It is interesting that usually kids don't get a good diet because parents don't care enough about nutrition, just eat whatever is cheaper or faster. In this case it is the opposite, a soy diet is usually associated with being very conscious of what the child eats. Soy is usually associated with "healthy" eating. But it ended up having an opposite effects.

"Healthy" eating is a huge market. There is of course Whole Foods, whole isles devoted to it in regular stores. It is a good of course. But there is a lot of irrationality and guesswork going on. What is interesting is that it is often people who are considered "intelligent" that end up believing various fads and strange ideas about health and nutrition. Like say I know a smart guy, a good programmer, believed in Acai thing and was drinking that. Someone else is into colon cleansing. Another one is eating super-doses of vitamins. These are supposedly educated people, good logic, math and programming skills yet they believe these strange ideas. And because of their intelligence they are harder to convince, as they are a lot better at rationalizing things away.

Re: Soy's Negative Effects (2009)

#36

Post by lambda »

rdtsc wrote: post #31
lambda wrote: post #15

This is why I am always extremely skeptical of any kind of diet extremism. I cringe any time someone labels something a "superfood", as that means they are likely to encourage eating it far beyond the point where it is healthy. I also cringe any time a dietary recommendation to remove a major macronutrient (fat, carbs) from your diet; that tends to lead to extreme compensation with something else, which can also be u…

> This is why I am always extremely skeptical of any kind of diet extremism. That's my approach as well. Single ingredient things are hard though. Take meat or eggs. It is one ingredient but depending what that animal ate or drugs they've been injected, it is also hard to know what you are getting. At some point I just give up and stop worrying about it. Some people get way too obsessed about it, someone I know "owns…

Yeah, even those can vary, but if you generally try to err on the side of local, organic, humanely raised, non GMO foods, you can be reasonably confident in the food you eat. Obviously you're never going to hit those all at once, and avoiding extremism in those areas can be good too; for example, sometimes people using organic pesticides can do more damage as they have to use much more pesticides than those using IPM with synthetic pesticides.

My approach is generally to err on the side of what's good, healthy, sustainable, and tasty rather than than what's cheap and convenient, but not to be an extremist about anything. I eat a mostly, but not entirely vegetarian diet; I get most of my produce locally when it's in season, but more shelf-friendly foods like flour I don't worry about getting locally.

Re: Soy's Negative Effects (2009)

#37

Post by lambda »

jacques_chester wrote: post #33
dhughes wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why even drink soy "milk" why not water or some other liquid, or other animal milk you may not be allergic to? It seems to me people are compelled to have a milk substitute whether due to allergy or ethical reasons as if we need to have something called milk in our fridges. It reminds me of the tofurky a soy shaped turkey supposedly tastes like turkey, it would be like a person who eats a lot of meat making a carrot…

For any dietary scheme built on avoiding certain foods (vegetarian, vegan, gluten-free, keto, paelo etc), there is a thriving cottage industry of substitutes. Some folk have an ethical objection to milk but want something that vaguely resembles it. For such people, whitened liquid cardboard -- soy juice -- is a popular alternative. Other people drink almond juice or rice juice. Edit: and some people have allergies or…

  whitened liquid cardboard
I object to that characterization. I rather like the taste of plain, unsweetened soymilk. It fills a very different niche than milk, however; milk is thicker and heavier (unless it's skim crap), and I'll have it with dessert, while soymilk is lighter and more refreshing. But I don't drink either on a regular basis.

Re: Soy's Negative Effects (2009)

#38

Post by throwaway9848 »

JPKab wrote: post #26
throwaway9848 wrote: post #12

What a pile of first world problems. I suspect a lot fewer guys will quit sugar and lose weight instead of quitting soy after reading this. And diabetes makes soy estrogen mimicking hormones look like kids' play when it comes to erectile dysfunction. A guy in his 50s or 60s (well past when the boys are pumping out huge amounts of testosterone) drinking _3 quarts_ of soy milk per day is not exactly typical.

I had the awful experience of (at the age of 15) having my father decide to be a vegan (due to a mid-life crisis) and replace all protein sources in our house with tofu and tempeh. It was fucking awful, and on top of the constant gas I had (going to high school with bad gas is itself torture) I remember having soreness and tenderness in the breast region. My progress in the weight room (I played football and wrestled…

"Vegan diets do not result in heart disease. Many studies have shown that vegetarians seem to have a lower risk of obesity, coronary heart disease (which causes heart attack), high blood pressure, diabetes mellitus and some forms of cancer." (http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/GettingHealthy/NutritionCenter...). There are plenty of other of legitimate articles if you look for them.

You may have some kind of soy allergy. Your gas and breast experience is neither universal nor typical.

I won't question your unusually strong feelings towards PETA, but please don't confuse what they do with animal welfare. Also, your bad feelings towards your father will do you no good in life, and you should try to get on decent terms with him before he dies (considering his advanced heart disease).

Re: Soy's Negative Effects (2009)

#39

Post by stugs »

maxerickson wrote: post #29
stugs wrote: post #5

This article is 4 years old and has been debunked over and over again. This has a links to a number of studies on the subject http://www.livestrong.com/article/548574-soy-protein-male-br...

That link has a reference (not a link) to one article that (apparently) provides contrary evidence. The only link provided debunks none of it.

You should probably scroll all the way to the bottom

Re: Soy's Negative Effects (2009)

#40

Post by jacques_chester »

lambda wrote: post #37
jacques_chester wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For any dietary scheme built on avoiding certain foods (vegetarian, vegan, gluten-free, keto, paelo etc), there is a thriving cottage industry of substitutes. Some folk have an ethical objection to milk but want something that vaguely resembles it. For such people, whitened liquid cardboard -- soy juice -- is a popular alternative. Other people drink almond juice or rice juice. Edit: and some people have allergies or…

whitened liquid cardboard I object to that characterization. I rather like the taste of plain, unsweetened soymilk. It fills a very different niche than milk, however; milk is thicker and heavier (unless it's skim crap), and I'll have it with dessert, while soymilk is lighter and more refreshing. But I don't drink either on a regular basis.

I think it varies from person to person; I know people who love it.

I found it tasted, quite sincerely, like cardboard. I was reminded of the Adams line about "almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea".

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