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SpaceX's Grasshopper Successfully Flew 325 Metres

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Re: SpaceX's Grasshopper Successfully Flew 325 Metres

#31
post #22

Could anyone explain why this is a good way to fly a spacecraft/what they are aiming for with this? It seems somewhat inelegant, considering the challenges having to do with stabilizing a vertical rocket.

Almost all of the cost of orbital launch is tied up in manufacturing cost and operational complexity. Fuel cost is about $200k for each Falcon 9.

The most important factor in reusability is making sure that the vehicle gets back to someplace convenient without any significant damage. If you crash-land using parachutes somewhere in the ocean or in a desert, that's not going to happen. So you need a controlled landing at a prepared site. The overhead necessary to return to the original landing site is generally more than made up by the fact that you get the rocket back exactly where you need it within a matter of hours and without any damage other than the normal wear and tear caused by every flight.

Re: SpaceX's Grasshopper Successfully Flew 325 Metres

#32
post #28
post #22

Could anyone explain why this is a good way to fly a spacecraft/what they are aiming for with this? It seems somewhat inelegant, considering the challenges having to do with stabilizing a vertical rocket.

Well, how else do you recover a rocket intact? Parachutes have lots of trouble. The rate of descent they achieve is still fairly fast, so you need something to brake the descent at the end. This is why various American capsules splashed into the ocean, as well as the Shuttle boosters, because the water acts as a cushion. However, dunking your delicate rocket in salt water is a bad idea. The American capsules weren't…

Thanks for the great answer! This one, and the one in the Lincoln thread. Very detailed!

Re: SpaceX's Grasshopper Successfully Flew 325 Metres

#33
post #17
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure I would call them the hardest. Stabilizing while traveling thousands of miles per hour in atmosphere to get to the point you can land like this seems much harder.

ICBMs already do this, and we've been precisely deorbiting satellites for decades. Landing safely is the really tricky part. During the Corona spy satellite days, they used to catch the parachuting pods with a plane+hook. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Keyhole_c...

ICBM warheads have about a 90% chance of landing within a circle with a radius of about half a kilometer, at least according to declassified info, the actual accuracy is likely higher. Even so, that hardly compares to a precision landing on a small landing pad.

Re: SpaceX's Grasshopper Successfully Flew 325 Metres

#34
post #29
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, how else do you recover a rocket intact? Parachutes have lots of trouble. The rate of descent they achieve is still fairly fast, so you need something to brake the descent at the end. This is why various American capsules splashed into the ocean, as well as the Shuttle boosters, because the water acts as a cushion. However, dunking your delicate rocket in salt water is a bad idea. The American capsules weren't…

I'd have thought[1] (post reentry) initial parachutes/streamers, either released or retracted, with a retro-engine landing. Could be that the weight savings in fuel aren't enough for that choice, or that there are other good reasons not to (added complexity, potential non-reusable components) [1] Although, aeronautics is famously non-intuitive, so ymmv.

I believe they considered parachutes and came to the conclusion that, since they are keeping the rocket engines, extra fuel and oxidizer are a better use for the mass. Parachutes large enough for slowing down the first stage along with the pyros needed to deploy them are heavy.

Re: SpaceX's Grasshopper Successfully Flew 325 Metres

#35
post #24
post #22

Could anyone explain why this is a good way to fly a spacecraft/what they are aiming for with this? It seems somewhat inelegant, considering the challenges having to do with stabilizing a vertical rocket.

It's extremely difficult to land large payloads on Mars unless you have a controlled rocket descent like SpaceX is building with Grasshopper. Check out the way NASA lands small rovers on Mars and imagine trying to build a colony of 80,000 people like that: not gonna happen.

If you build your supply landers (and your supplies, of course) capable of withstanding high g's you can probably crash-land large things on airbags. NASA hasn't done it because the rovers are somewhat delicate, but if you are shipping frozen-solid food containers, I believe it would be fine.

Re: SpaceX's Grasshopper Successfully Flew 325 Metres

#36
post #28
post #22

Could anyone explain why this is a good way to fly a spacecraft/what they are aiming for with this? It seems somewhat inelegant, considering the challenges having to do with stabilizing a vertical rocket.

Well, how else do you recover a rocket intact? Parachutes have lots of trouble. The rate of descent they achieve is still fairly fast, so you need something to brake the descent at the end. This is why various American capsules splashed into the ocean, as well as the Shuttle boosters, because the water acts as a cushion. However, dunking your delicate rocket in salt water is a bad idea. The American capsules weren't…

This is great write up, thanks for the explanation.

I've studied physics in undergrad but I still made the mistake you describe in your last paragraph. The Grasshopper intuitively feels dynamically like an inverted pendulum but even harder because all you have are rockets at the bottom and you can adjust their rotation (I assume?).

On the other hand, there is no fixed pivot point around which you get torque, is this what the difference comes down to?

Do you happen to have any pointers to some articles that discuss this, and how difficult it is to balance? How does the wind affect things? What are the biggest challenges?

Re: SpaceX's Grasshopper Successfully Flew 325 Metres

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's elegant because you "just" have to strap landing gear and some parachutes to your existing rockets and you can reuse them. You lose some payload capacity, but you get to use your rocket again (which is the expensive part). We have tried engineering more complex re-usable lifting body type designs, only the shuttle ended up flying, and it wasn't cost effective.

How much fuel does it take to control a descent from the altitude they separate the stage? I mean, obviously it's worth it, but I'm curious just how much of a game changer this is.

No one quite knows, as no such system exists yet, though I imagine SpaceX has some internal numbers. You need enough to slow your mostly-empty (and thus fairly light) stage from its terminal velocity to 0, and however many seconds margin you need to be comfortable.

Let's do some very rough numbers to get a ballpark...

Say terminal velocity is 100 m/s, which is fairly fast, but a rocket is a skinny streamlined thing. (It could fall slower, maybe even 50 m/s, on its side or with parachutes, but parachutes are heavy and complicated, and falling sideways may be difficult to control, but seems quite possible.)

Say an F9 "1.1" first stage weighs 28,000 kg. The landing components mostly are already there: the engines are already gimballed and the additional software weighs nothing. Unless you're so awesome you can land in a cradle--which is not impossible--you need some landing gear, so let's add 3000kg, for a dry weight of 31,000 kg.

Amongst all its engines, our F9 has some 300,000kg of thrust. Just one engine is around 33,000kg thrust, so we'll probably only use one or two.

Two engines will get us easily about 10m/s slower per second, so we need to retro-fire for minimum 10 seconds. You probably want some margin over that; let's reserve 20 seconds fuel.

F9 1.1 stage 1 will have a burn time of 185s; our retro burn is only at about 25% capacity, so 20s of two engines is worth, oh, 5s of normal burn time. Say about 3% of the fuel.

Of course, it's not that simple, because (1) we've made the stage heavier with the landing gear, which requires more fuel and (2) to avoid losing performance we'll want to add enough fuel to add our extra burn time, which also requires more fuel, and (3) we need more fuel to lift all that fuel and mass we added. The rocket equation strikes again!

(Of course, it may not be that bad, because usually first stages have plenty of margin, and most payloads are not max. Maybe if you encounter a really heavy payload you just agree to throw away the rocket that time; use an old one or something.)

Most of my assumptions are pessimistic (I think) but in the real world they may turn out optimistic. I would guess you're looking at 3-5% of the fuel load for a recoverable VTOL stage. A lot depends on details, as with rockets weight scales very badly against performance.

Re: SpaceX's Grasshopper Successfully Flew 325 Metres

#38
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, how else do you recover a rocket intact? Parachutes have lots of trouble. The rate of descent they achieve is still fairly fast, so you need something to brake the descent at the end. This is why various American capsules splashed into the ocean, as well as the Shuttle boosters, because the water acts as a cushion. However, dunking your delicate rocket in salt water is a bad idea. The American capsules weren't…

This is great write up, thanks for the explanation. I've studied physics in undergrad but I still made the mistake you describe in your last paragraph. The Grasshopper intuitively feels dynamically like an inverted pendulum but even harder because all you have are rockets at the bottom and you can adjust their rotation (I assume?). On the other hand, there is no fixed pivot point around which you get torque, is this…

[deleted]

Re: SpaceX's Grasshopper Successfully Flew 325 Metres

#39
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, how else do you recover a rocket intact? Parachutes have lots of trouble. The rate of descent they achieve is still fairly fast, so you need something to brake the descent at the end. This is why various American capsules splashed into the ocean, as well as the Shuttle boosters, because the water acts as a cushion. However, dunking your delicate rocket in salt water is a bad idea. The American capsules weren't…

This is great write up, thanks for the explanation. I've studied physics in undergrad but I still made the mistake you describe in your last paragraph. The Grasshopper intuitively feels dynamically like an inverted pendulum but even harder because all you have are rockets at the bottom and you can adjust their rotation (I assume?). On the other hand, there is no fixed pivot point around which you get torque, is this…

I think that yes, it's the lack of a fixed pivot point.

The inverted pendulum case (as approximated when balancing a pencil on its tip) can be reduced to a single object resting on the surface of a frictionless sphere, under the influence of gravity. At the precise top of the sphere, it can stay stationary. Perturb it even slightly, and it begins to accelerate away.

With the rocket, the object is essentially resting on a flat frictionless plane. If you tilt it a bit, then it begins to slide away, but the acceleration is always proportional to the initial perturbation. This is because the rocket always remains in the same orientation, and so the force always comes from the same direction. That, in turn, is because the rocket engine moves along with the rest of the rocket, rather than being a fixed point in space.

Think about it another way: without external support, and ignoring the influence of the atmosphere, a rocket is in free fall. The fact that it's accelerating to counter the force of gravity doesn't change that fact. Again ignoring the atmosphere, a rocket firing with 1g of thrust counteracting gravity behaves the same as a rocket firing with 1g of thrust in empty space. The second case is obviously not unstable (what would it be unstable with respect to?) and so the first case isn't either.

Adding the atmosphere back in, I could be way off here, but I think what little effect it would have at low speeds would be beneficial. Since the goal is not to move, the drag from the atmosphere will help make sure that happens. Since the rocket is more or less of a uniform shape, that drag shouldn't end up applying much of a torque either.

Edit: forgot to mention, I'm afraid I don't have pointers to articles. I've collected this stuff through various readings and thought over the years and don't have anything specific to point to. I think I first learned about Goddard's pendulum mistake in high school physics, for example.

Re: SpaceX's Grasshopper Successfully Flew 325 Metres

#40
post #28
post #22

Could anyone explain why this is a good way to fly a spacecraft/what they are aiming for with this? It seems somewhat inelegant, considering the challenges having to do with stabilizing a vertical rocket.

Well, how else do you recover a rocket intact? Parachutes have lots of trouble. The rate of descent they achieve is still fairly fast, so you need something to brake the descent at the end. This is why various American capsules splashed into the ocean, as well as the Shuttle boosters, because the water acts as a cushion. However, dunking your delicate rocket in salt water is a bad idea. The American capsules weren't…

More on this, if anybody else is interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pendulum_rocket_fallacy
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