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Why Young Americans Should Work Overseas

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Re: Why Young Americans Should Work Overseas

#31

Post by rayiner »

EscKey wrote: post #26
fractalsea wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me those images of New Delhi look 10x more exciting to live than http://abcdunlimited.com/ideas/images/suburbia.jpg for example.

Why does it feel Hacker News is completely blind to the rampant corruption, poverty and rape of New Delhi. I often read about how great it is here, unlike any other website. I suppose not being female helps. http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia/2013/04/20134271442181816... Ignorance is bliss. Let me spell it out for you. THERE IS NOTHING FUN OR EXCITING ABOUT IT.

People who have never lived amidst such extreme wealth disparity cannot appreciate what a mindfuck it is. There was an article the other day on HN about how upper class Indians barely regard lower class Indians as human beings. It's not because upper class Indians are bad people. It's because that's the only way to cope living in a country like India where the rich live amongst indescribable poverty.

Re: Why Young Americans Should Work Overseas

#32

Post by tptacek »

enraged_camel wrote: post #19
stormen wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're incredibly ignorant. You should leave the US; not because the rest of the world is necessarily better (yet some parts undoubtedly - in general - are), but because it gives you a broader perspective on your own life and situation. Just a statement like "where the bottom 10% live as well as the top 10% do in developing countries" really shows you haven't been outside your home town.

>>Just a statement like "where the bottom 10% live as well as the top 10% do in developing countries" really shows you haven't been outside your home town. The real problem with that statement is that it misrepresents the problem. The fact that our poor live as well as middle class (or even upper class) in developing countries does not mean anything, because our poor do not compete for the same resources and opportun…

That is a nonsensical assertion. In exactly what way am I worse off simply because some rich tool has a private jet or a Bugatti Veyron? I still enjoy a standard of living beyond the wildest imaginings of my great grandparents, or, for that matter, for the vast rural poor of Asia.

The problem of wealth disparity in the US is exclusively one of burden sharing: disparity is a problem when those of lesser means are required to make actual sacrifices, like risking bankruptcy for an appendectomy, or sending their kids to classrooms with a 45-1 student/teacher ratio. It's a problem implicating disparity because the Bugatti drivers could, it's often asserted, pick up a greater share of the burden while feeling less of the impact, because the marginal utility of their dollars is less than those of a poor person.

But the problem is not simply that there are rich people, or that they have things you & I don't have. Many of the things rich people have are stupid. But even when they're not, they almost never cost you anything; in fact, because the rich choose to soak themselves with Veblen goods, their extravagant purchases actually help you by driving the economy.

Re: Why Young Americans Should Work Overseas

#33

Post by tptacek »

fatjokes wrote: post #25
rayiner wrote: post #7

I view with a deep distrust the new class of global capitalist that thinks we must inexorably become "global citizens." The western world didn't come from nowhere. People built it, and their successors should be able to reap the fruits of it, not have to flee to the developing world. I read an article the other day (it was in Forbes or maybe Business Week). Some American was talking about the investment opportunities…

> The western world didn't come from nowhere. People built it, and their successors should be able to reap the fruits of it, not have to flee to the developing world. If the successors should reap the benefits, then should they also pay for the sins? E.g., continued restitution for slavery (which, while abolished has left deep racial scars in society) and for the genocide and forced displacement of the indigenous pop…

The world would be better off exactly how, if we all shared New Delhi's standard of living?

Re: Why Young Americans Should Work Overseas

#34

Post by graeme »

rayiner wrote: post #7

I view with a deep distrust the new class of global capitalist that thinks we must inexorably become "global citizens." The western world didn't come from nowhere. People built it, and their successors should be able to reap the fruits of it, not have to flee to the developing world. I read an article the other day (it was in Forbes or maybe Business Week). Some American was talking about the investment opportunities…

>where the bottom 10% live as well as the top 10% do in developing countries.

You clearly have never lived abroad. Money goes further.

I once lived in Cuba, for an internship. I had housing and food provided by my employer, they paid the family $800. I had $500 spending money on top of that.

I lived like a KING. I've never been that rich in my life. People made my food, cleaning my room, cooked for me, did my laundry.

Many thing that I wanted to buy could be had for a fraction of the price. I'm led to understand that this applies across the developing world.

In particular, you can hire PEOPLE for a fraction of the cost you can get interpersonal services here. This has an incredible impact on your real standard of living.

According to Wikpiedia, bottom 10% maxes out at 10,500 in America.

That is POOR, assuming you don't have health care or housing provided.

I couldn't find reliable figures for China, India, Brazil or other countries, but I'm very certain I'd rather be in the top 10% of those countries than the bottom 10% of America.

Anyone have figures for those countries, or experiences being 'well-off' in a poor country?

Re: Why Young Americans Should Work Overseas

#35

Post by mchaver »

rayiner wrote: post #7

I view with a deep distrust the new class of global capitalist that thinks we must inexorably become "global citizens." The western world didn't come from nowhere. People built it, and their successors should be able to reap the fruits of it, not have to flee to the developing world. I read an article the other day (it was in Forbes or maybe Business Week). Some American was talking about the investment opportunities…

What if the system a nation has built cannot adapt to changes and does not leave opportunities for the youth? And what if other nations do? That is one of the main motivating factors of immigration.

Re: Why Young Americans Should Work Overseas

#36

Post by graeme »

rayiner wrote: post #10
stormen wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're incredibly ignorant. You should leave the US; not because the rest of the world is necessarily better (yet some parts undoubtedly - in general - are), but because it gives you a broader perspective on your own life and situation. Just a statement like "where the bottom 10% live as well as the top 10% do in developing countries" really shows you haven't been outside your home town.

I was born in Bangkok, Thailand, lived in Bangladesh for several years, and have traveled fairly extensively in Asia and Europe as a child/young teenager.

What's the top 10% in Bangkok and Bangladesh?

Having lived in one poor country (Cuba), I found your statement as incredible as the grandparent comment's author did.

Bottom 10% in America is $10,500 according to Wikipedia. That doesn't get you much standard of living.

Everything is cheaper in the developing world, so seemingly small amounts can go much further.

Re: Why Young Americans Should Work Overseas

#37

Post by jfoutz »

newbie12 wrote: post #23
enraged_camel wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Just a statement like "where the bottom 10% live as well as the top 10% do in developing countries" really shows you haven't been outside your home town. The real problem with that statement is that it misrepresents the problem. The fact that our poor live as well as middle class (or even upper class) in developing countries does not mean anything, because our poor do not compete for the same resources and opportun…

Why? Our "poor" have televisions, air conditioning, cars, and homes. There's so much food in America that obesity is a major health issue. This is a profound success and departure from the normal human condition of misery. Please put down the Marxist textbook.

I'm just gonna throw this out there... "In sum, we estimate that, as of the beginning of 2011, about 1.46 million U.S. households with about 2.8 million children were surviving on $2 or less in income per person per day in a given month."

http://npc.umich.edu/publications/policy_briefs/brief28/poli...

Re: Why Young Americans Should Work Overseas

#38

Post by rayiner »

graeme wrote: post #34
rayiner wrote: post #7

I view with a deep distrust the new class of global capitalist that thinks we must inexorably become "global citizens." The western world didn't come from nowhere. People built it, and their successors should be able to reap the fruits of it, not have to flee to the developing world. I read an article the other day (it was in Forbes or maybe Business Week). Some American was talking about the investment opportunities…

>where the bottom 10% live as well as the top 10% do in developing countries. You clearly have never lived abroad. Money goes further. I once lived in Cuba, for an internship. I had housing and food provided by my employer, they paid the family $800. I had $500 spending money on top of that. I lived like a KING. I've never been that rich in my life. People made my food, cleaning my room, cooked for me, did my laundry…

Much of my family is "top 10% in a developing country." Yes, they can afford people to make their food and clean their houses. That's just because of how poor everyone is, and there is a very negative aspect to that situation as well.*

But if you look at their apartments, personal possessions, etc, their standard of living is comparable to people living in public housing in say the Bronx.

*) My dad once asked one of our servants, a young man maybe 18-19, to go buy a pack of cigarettes. He came back without the cigarettes, telling my dad "I'm sorry, I couldn't buy them--they were [as much as he made in a week or two]." He never asked him to buy cigarettes again... In general, its extremely awkward to have domestic servants in poor countries because those people are actually really poor. Their kids have no opportunities. They'll work until they're dead with no hope of retirement.

Re: Why Young Americans Should Work Overseas

#39

Post by seanmcdirmid »

tptacek wrote: post #17
stormen wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Congratulations, then you know the value of getting an outside perspective on western culture.

That's one way to say "Oh, I was wrong, I'm sorry", I guess.

No I don't think he was. You missed the entire point of the article, I guess.

Re: Why Young Americans Should Work Overseas

#40

Post by graeme »

tptacek wrote: post #32
enraged_camel wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Just a statement like "where the bottom 10% live as well as the top 10% do in developing countries" really shows you haven't been outside your home town. The real problem with that statement is that it misrepresents the problem. The fact that our poor live as well as middle class (or even upper class) in developing countries does not mean anything, because our poor do not compete for the same resources and opportun…

That is a nonsensical assertion. In exactly what way am I worse off simply because some rich tool has a private jet or a Bugatti Veyron? I still enjoy a standard of living beyond the wildest imaginings of my great grandparents, or, for that matter, for the vast rural poor of Asia. The problem of wealth disparity in the US is exclusively one of burden sharing: disparity is a problem when those of lesser means are requ…

The wealthy bid up prices. Depending on the industry, you can buy equivalent good and services for much, much less than you can in America.

Obviously this doesn't apply to an iphone, a private jet, or a Bugatti Veyron.

But if you want a haircut or groceries, it applies. Likewise to a host of other goods and services that the poor spend money on.

Give me bottom 10% in America ($10,500) and I'm very, very poor.

There are countries where you can live like a king on that same amount of money.

(It depends how much you value personal services such as maids, cooks, etc. which tend to be most affected by this phenomenon)

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