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There are Ladies Present

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Re: There are Ladies Present

#31

Post by joshontheweb »

baby wrote: post #29
rayiner wrote: post #26

I feel that to an extent the above article misses the point. It strains to draw this distinction of "remember that women want to be treated like people in a work context but also that women are different than men and you should remember that too." Its exhausting and puts the emphasis on the wrong place. You know why people like Adria Richards are hypersensitive about dick jokes? Because women are a minority in progra…

> being a minority sucks Well that's the thing with this community. We think we're clever enough to avoid basic human nature and NOT discriminate a minority. I believe this can happen with dedication and extreme stories like the pycon's one to remind us of how being a minority sucks when people act too human. > Fix the representation problem You mean fix the mentality.

No, I think he meant what he said. If there wasn't an unbalanced representation of genders, the sensitivity would be less because there would be less self consciousness about your gender in the situation.

Re: There are Ladies Present

#32

Post by illuminate »

zem wrote: post #4

i disagree. he seems to be saying that the industry needs women because of the new and different, "grown-up, nurturing, ..." perspective they can bring to the table. i think the industry needs women because, well, when you arbitrarily exclude half the human race from contributing, you are unquestionably losing something of significant value. the thing is this: women have already gotten a raw deal by being socialised…

"women have already gotten a raw deal by being socialised to find sex uncomfortable"

The counter to this is that they should be made more comfortable by not ~forcing~ them to pretend to be comfortable with awkward conversations in professional situations. Some things aren't as progressive as you imagine.

Re: There are Ladies Present

#33

Post by mindcrime »

logjam wrote: post #27
dizzystar wrote: post #19

I went to school for a female-dominated profession (yes, there are quite a few out there where the balance goes the other way). I can assure you that if you find the things men say offensive, you haven't heard anything... I want to add the caveat that I am NOT attempting to appeal to hypocrisy. While I agree that there is a limit, I don't see how calling languages "estrogen" is offensive and I don't understand how ca…

No. Ellen Degeneres or The Voice or any of the other false equivalences you're desperately reaching to make is not the professional technical workplace. If you run in any of my technical circles, put on a technical presentation, or otherwise represent at a technical conference, and you make "jokes" that are sexual innuendos of any kind or are otherwise unprofessional.... You will be gone. Gone. Count on it. The tech…

"sexual joke" are not necessarily "sexist jokes" and there is no particular reason to say that women are somehow traumitized by the mere mention of sexuality. Is making sexual jokes at a conference unprofessional? Yes, but it's unprofessional regardless of the gender of anyone or everyone in earshot. Whether it's unprofessional enough to justify:

"You will be gone. Gone."

"Count on it."

is quite clearly a subjective matter. All I can say is, don't invite me to represent at any event you put on. Being professional is one matter, catering to PC bullshit in the misguided belief that you can avoid even the remotest possibility of offending someone, is quite something else.

Re: There are Ladies Present

#34

Post by azov »

rayiner wrote: post #26

I feel that to an extent the above article misses the point. It strains to draw this distinction of "remember that women want to be treated like people in a work context but also that women are different than men and you should remember that too." Its exhausting and puts the emphasis on the wrong place. You know why people like Adria Richards are hypersensitive about dick jokes? Because women are a minority in progra…

I still don't understand your logic. What is it about being a minority that makes one sensitive to dick jokes?

Re: There are Ladies Present

#35

Post by dizzystar »

logjam wrote: post #27
dizzystar wrote: post #19

I went to school for a female-dominated profession (yes, there are quite a few out there where the balance goes the other way). I can assure you that if you find the things men say offensive, you haven't heard anything... I want to add the caveat that I am NOT attempting to appeal to hypocrisy. While I agree that there is a limit, I don't see how calling languages "estrogen" is offensive and I don't understand how ca…

No. Ellen Degeneres or The Voice or any of the other false equivalences you're desperately reaching to make is not the professional technical workplace. If you run in any of my technical circles, put on a technical presentation, or otherwise represent at a technical conference, and you make "jokes" that are sexual innuendos of any kind or are otherwise unprofessional.... You will be gone. Gone. Count on it. The tech…

Let me ask you:

Guy calls a hat cute, he...

Woman calls a hat cute, she...

Which one is more offensive?

What exactly did men do that was so terrible to women -- in this industry -- that you feel like everyone has to make amends, and anything that "could" be a sexual joke should result result in the drama bomb we just seen or any ultimatums?

I did NOT suggest that you should be making bathroom jokes on stage. I DID suggest that calling a hat "cute" is not the slightest bit offensive. Seriously zero need to call for an apology over that.

You know what this drama bomb does to your profession?

-- It makes your profession unwelcome to me (male) and to many other people who would like to join in. We just had a post on the front page yesterday written by a woman who found this whole hoopla offensive and I am willing to bet excellent odds that women don't want to be part of this drama either.

Why?

-- The immaturity and the way you handled this stuff, as a community, is so incredibly shameful and backwards that I simply refuse to be a part of it. I would love to go to PyCon or similar places, but this makes it look like your profession is virulent and everyone is at each others throats, and any small spark is going to light a huge fire of controversy. I don't want to be a part of a drama bomb and I don't want to be part of a club that is openly succumbing to every whim of Drama Queens and Drama Kings.

Re: There are Ladies Present

#36

Post by mindcrime »

derefr wrote: post #8

> Men, can you imagine how hard it would be if all the women were constantly, and openly, talking about tampons, cramps, yeast infections, cheating, being cheated on, Trichomoniasis, faking-it, etc? I don't know about you, but It would make me feel out of place. You're right--you don't know about me. I fully wish this were the case! The place I want to work is the place where people are people , not separately "men"…

> Men, can you imagine how hard it would be if all the women were constantly, and openly, talking about tampons, cramps, yeast infections, cheating, being cheated on, Trichomoniasis, faking-it, etc? I don't know about you, but It would make me feel out of place.

I've been the only male in a female dominated IT department before, and you know what... it does feel a bit awkward being a minority. It's not fun, and you always feel like something of an outsider in a sense, even when the other people are friendly and accept you. But at the end of the day, being offended is a choice... you can choose to take offense, or not take offense. And there's a huge gap between something that's merely offensive and actual "abuse" or "sexual harassment". When I worked with all those women, I just went in, did my thing, treated them like equals and did my work. We weren't ever really "friends" and I never hung out with any of them outside of work or anything, but that never mattered. The money they paid me to work there spent just as well, regardless of any of that shit, why should I worry about getting worked up over gender differences and the occasional joke about premature ejaculation or penis size.

Re: There are Ladies Present

#38

Post by nilkn »

azov wrote: post #34
rayiner wrote: post #26

I feel that to an extent the above article misses the point. It strains to draw this distinction of "remember that women want to be treated like people in a work context but also that women are different than men and you should remember that too." Its exhausting and puts the emphasis on the wrong place. You know why people like Adria Richards are hypersensitive about dick jokes? Because women are a minority in progra…

I still don't understand your logic. What is it about being a minority that makes one sensitive to dick jokes?

I think he's saying that being a minority and feeling like a minority makes you sensitive to basically everything. Dick jokes just happen to get included in that.

Not sure I agree, but that is how I interpreted his post anyway.

Re: There are Ladies Present

#39

Post by fusiongyro »

morpher wrote: post #6

Do a lot of guys approach coding with a conquest mentality? I found this sentiment particularly interesting. I've always had a more creative / constructive mindset while coding and curious / scientific mindset while debugging. As a male programmer, I'm curious if I live out in the tails of the distribution, or if Uncle Bob is less average than he assumes.

I came here to talk about this, because I also really don't feel that way. I feel more like I'm struggling to say something, and bugs are manifestations of my inability to be terse and precise. When everything comes together, it feels like I've communicated perfectly and eloquently. I get exactly the same feeling from programming as from debate, but my goal in both cases is simply to acquire the right understanding and be properly understood.
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