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There are Ladies Present

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Re: There are Ladies Present

#21

Post by newnewnew »

dizzystar wrote: post #19

I went to school for a female-dominated profession (yes, there are quite a few out there where the balance goes the other way). I can assure you that if you find the things men say offensive, you haven't heard anything... I want to add the caveat that I am NOT attempting to appeal to hypocrisy. While I agree that there is a limit, I don't see how calling languages "estrogen" is offensive and I don't understand how ca…

IMO, this comes from the ideology that the reason underprivileged groups are underprivileged is because of negative social expectations that have a negative subconscious effect on their performance. I don't find it completely convincing (there is much evidence which refutes it), but there are some small experimental studies which support it. I find it plausible that in a group where the minority is extremely small the effect may be large and significant.

Re: There are Ladies Present

#22

Post by eplanit »

Lordy, we seem to live in hyper-sensitive times where everyone parses simple humor through a filter of scrutiny looking for some reason to be offended (often to be offended on behalf of some other group). The wisdom I have mostly heard, and agree with, is to be sensitive and respectful when making a joke -- but if they can't handle humor that was intended to elicit fun, then f__k 'em.

Re: There are Ladies Present

#23

Post by newnewnew »

antihero wrote: post #12

Fuck fuck fuck fuck fucking fuck. Women are humans. Some of us (humans) find toilet humour funny and a great way to escape situations, some of us dislike it and find it unprofessional, some of us just don't give a fuck. Just talk like you talk, be aware of alienating people you care about, fuck those you don't, and do cool shit. I like toilet humour. It is silly and fun and stupid. It is ironic and whatever fucking p…

Men, and especially white and Asian men, are afraid and confused because other people have this powerful weapon they can use against them called "getting offended". The rules for how it works are fuzzy and not printed anywhere and anyways they vary from place to place. So men, and especially highly logical men, are scared, curious, and very motivated to try to figure out the rules.

In recent cases of sexual harassment at conferences, the rules were very clear-cut. The lesson was "don't touch a woman that doesn't want to be touched by you" or "don't put porn in a presentation", for those few men dense enough not to know that in the first place. Conferences learned a lot and got serious about being safer places for women. Pycon was a leader in that.

But this time everything is scary and confusing. People don't know what lesson to take. So they're blindly groping for an answer.

Re: There are Ladies Present

#24

Post by rhdoenges »

dizzystar wrote: post #19

I went to school for a female-dominated profession (yes, there are quite a few out there where the balance goes the other way). I can assure you that if you find the things men say offensive, you haven't heard anything... I want to add the caveat that I am NOT attempting to appeal to hypocrisy. While I agree that there is a limit, I don't see how calling languages "estrogen" is offensive and I don't understand how ca…

We have to bite our tongues and be careful of everything we say

Every word out of your mouth has an effect on the people around you. Please, consider consequences before you speak. This is not a radical notion.

Re: There are Ladies Present

#25

Post by rhdoenges »

newnewnew wrote: post #21
dizzystar wrote: post #19

I went to school for a female-dominated profession (yes, there are quite a few out there where the balance goes the other way). I can assure you that if you find the things men say offensive, you haven't heard anything... I want to add the caveat that I am NOT attempting to appeal to hypocrisy. While I agree that there is a limit, I don't see how calling languages "estrogen" is offensive and I don't understand how ca…

IMO, this comes from the ideology that the reason underprivileged groups are underprivileged is because of negative social expectations that have a negative subconscious effect on their performance. I don't find it completely convincing (there is much evidence which refutes it), but there are some small experimental studies which support it. I find it plausible that in a group where the minority is extremely small th…

What "small experimental studies" are you referring to? This entire comment was a dismissive appeal to authority.

Re: There are Ladies Present

#26

Post by rayiner »

I feel that to an extent the above article misses the point. It strains to draw this distinction of "remember that women want to be treated like people in a work context but also that women are different than men and you should remember that too." Its exhausting and puts the emphasis on the wrong place.

You know why people like Adria Richards are hypersensitive about dick jokes? Because women are a minority in programming and being a minority sucks. If there were as many female CEOs as male CEOs in tech and we knew as little about Marissa Mayer's child-care situation as we do about Jeff Bezos's, nobody would give a fuck about dick jokes. Women aren't the minority in tech because men make dick jokes--(some) women are sensitive about men making dick jokes because they are in the minority. When people don't feel awkwardly self conscious about their place in the power dynamic, they are free to laugh at jokes like a normal person.

Fix the representation problem and all of this will take care of itself.

Re: There are Ladies Present

#27

Post by logjam »

dizzystar wrote: post #19

I went to school for a female-dominated profession (yes, there are quite a few out there where the balance goes the other way). I can assure you that if you find the things men say offensive, you haven't heard anything... I want to add the caveat that I am NOT attempting to appeal to hypocrisy. While I agree that there is a limit, I don't see how calling languages "estrogen" is offensive and I don't understand how ca…

No.

Ellen Degeneres or The Voice or any of the other false equivalences you're desperately reaching to make is not the professional technical workplace.

If you run in any of my technical circles, put on a technical presentation, or otherwise represent at a technical conference, and you make "jokes" that are sexual innuendos of any kind or are otherwise unprofessional....

You will be gone. Gone.

Count on it.

The tech world created these shitty circumstances for women and this shitty little drama because we males in that world have behaved abominably. Over decades.

Guess what? Now we're going to start demonstrating that we can be professional, or heads are going to roll. Continually.

Count on it.

Re: There are Ladies Present

#28

Post by [deleted] »

logjam wrote: post #27
dizzystar wrote: post #19

I went to school for a female-dominated profession (yes, there are quite a few out there where the balance goes the other way). I can assure you that if you find the things men say offensive, you haven't heard anything... I want to add the caveat that I am NOT attempting to appeal to hypocrisy. While I agree that there is a limit, I don't see how calling languages "estrogen" is offensive and I don't understand how ca…

No. Ellen Degeneres or The Voice or any of the other false equivalences you're desperately reaching to make is not the professional technical workplace. If you run in any of my technical circles, put on a technical presentation, or otherwise represent at a technical conference, and you make "jokes" that are sexual innuendos of any kind or are otherwise unprofessional.... You will be gone. Gone. Count on it. The tech…

[deleted]

Re: There are Ladies Present

#29

Post by baby »

rayiner wrote: post #26

I feel that to an extent the above article misses the point. It strains to draw this distinction of "remember that women want to be treated like people in a work context but also that women are different than men and you should remember that too." Its exhausting and puts the emphasis on the wrong place. You know why people like Adria Richards are hypersensitive about dick jokes? Because women are a minority in progra…

> being a minority sucks

Well that's the thing with this community. We think we're clever enough to avoid basic human nature and NOT discriminate a minority. I believe this can happen with dedication and extreme stories like the pycon's one to remind us of how being a minority sucks when people act too human.

> Fix the representation problem

You mean fix the mentality.

Re: There are Ladies Present

#30

Post by illuminate »

iamtherockstar wrote: post #3

I agree with this, fully and unequivocally. I have to wonder if "there are ladies present" might also be construed as sexist. Maybe we just shouldn't use toilet humor in situations where we're not absolutely sure everyone will find it appropriate. Warning: offensive, but to demonstrate a point... I once interviewed a guy who decided to wear a t-shirt to the interview that read "Thousands of my potential children died…

Serious question, and I don't mean this disrespectfully to you, but why did you not turn him away immediately and proceed to waste everyone's time?
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