Ask HN: I've had some software developed, now the coder is holding me for ransom. • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: I've had some software developed, now the coder is holding me for ransom.

#31

Post by vaksel » Sat, Mar 21, 2009, 4:10 PM UTC

alecco wrote: post #21

vaksel wrote: post #7

Simple...sue him. Dude I'm in your exact situation...hired someone to do a project, and he is now a year late. I gave the guy concession after concession just to get him to finish...hell I cut about 70% of the features just to have him finish quicker. And told him...as long as he finish quickly I'd waive the late fees. You can't work with these people...even after all my concessions the guy still gave me major attitu…

> Simple...sue him. I beg to differ. As an entrepreneur, this path would cost time and money. $2500 can't be such a big deal. Also, you'll never get support for the code by anybody else. As a programmer, I'd never work for anybody who sued a fellow programmer over disagreements (only possible case for excuse of this: trojan inside the code or backdoor.) You are part responsible because you hired the programmer, Next…

So whats your solution to getting the programmer to finish a 1-2 month project that's a year late?

Re: Ask HN: I've had some software developed, now the coder is holding me for ransom.

#32

Post by Zak » Sat, Mar 21, 2009, 4:25 PM UTC

indiejade wrote: post #8

I've hired a coder to create me a desktop app using JAVA swing that I planned to sell. You might be asking for advice in the wrong place. If you want to make money selling desktop apps, the advice you'll likely get from this crowd is "learn how to do it yourself." Otherwise, give your coder at least a 50 percent interest in all of the proceeds from this app. Given what you tell us of his reaction, it sounds like you…

If you want to make money selling desktop apps, the advice you'll likely get from this crowd is "learn how to do it yourself." Otherwise, give your coder at least a 50 percent interest in all of the proceeds from this app.

I don't know about that. Personally, I'd take $2500 over a 50% interest in most apps-for-hire I've seen. The OP may, in fact make a lot of money off of what he's trying to sell, but asking a programmer he doesn't already know to take that bet seems like a way to get a programmer who can't find other work (probably for a good reason).

To the OP: even if you're right, morally and legally, and you manage to get someone to disable the authentication, and you don't get sued, what you're asking for is still a bad idea. You won't have the source code. You won't be able to make any worthwhile changes. You won't get very far selling an application that you can't modify.

Your best bet is to either start over (someone here might be willing to do the work, for example - I'd consider it), or work things out with your programmer. Note that working things out might involve you getting a lawyer, though he might well have some legitimate claim to more money, if, for example he did work beyond the original spec for your project.

Re: Ask HN: I've had some software developed, now the coder is holding me for ransom.

#33

Post by pixpox3 » Sat, Mar 21, 2009, 4:26 PM UTC

indiejade wrote: post #24

pixpox3 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate that I can't write code, he has a skill I don't have. But I hired him to do it, he agreed a price, but hes now almost a year late and despite me offering him bonuses, 10% of the profits, hes still holding me to ransom and wanting more. If I hire someone to build a house they don't get insulted when I offer them 10% of future rental yields. How can it be insulting to offer a percentage which wasn't even i…

If I hire someone to build a house they don't get insulted when I offer them 10% of future rental yields. How can it be insulting to offer a percentage which wasn't even in the initial agreement? Maybe you're thinking about it in the wrong way. If you were to commission somebody to create a painting, you wouldn't paint over his or her name, scribble your own over it, and try to take credit for the work, would you? Ev…

I appreciate that coding software is an iterative process.

But this software was planned out very clearly, there were some minor changes, but nothing big.

Im not sure why 10 percent doesn't seem like a good deal for him, he quoted me 2500 dollars, which is all he should get. Out of desperation and a desire to get the project moving and actually get some results, I offered him 10 percent when it was several months late.

Re: Ask HN: I've had some software developed, now the coder is holding me for ransom.

#34

Post by pixpox3 » Sat, Mar 21, 2009, 4:32 PM UTC

mannicken wrote: post #28

Have you paid anything yet? Don't. Drop him. Here are two good reasons to drop him: 1. You are wasting your time -- I don't think he'll give you anything, or you'll end up spending so much money that profits are unreasonable. 2. Even if he does, what guarantee is there that there is no "surprise" hidden in the code? I have seen freelancers do that when they're disappointed in the buyer. Find another guy and learn fro…

I paid him more than 2000 dollars of the fee already unfortunately. I've learnt a lot from this, specifically that even really good coders (or any professional) can be very good at what they do but still be completely unreasonable and willing to screw you.

Re: Ask HN: I've had some software developed, now the coder is holding me for ransom.

#35

Post by ftse » Sat, Mar 21, 2009, 4:44 PM UTC

pixpox3 wrote: post #13

Hexstream wrote: post #11

Cut your losses. At some point you have to admit to yourself that you've been had and you won't get any kind of compensation. You're just wasting resources. Next time you'll be more apt at heeding the red flags.

I feel like I've put enough time into this (not to mention money!) that makes it very hard to do that...

Yes, many of us have felt this way. Be smart, draw a line under this and start again with a new coder. In a years time you'll look back and be glad you did. In an alternate universe you won't and it will make you miserable.

Re: Ask HN: I've had some software developed, now the coder is holding me for ransom.

#36

Post by andr » Sat, Mar 21, 2009, 4:59 PM UTC

To answer your question, Java is very easy to reverse engineer. Google for a decompiler. Several years ago I would get an almost perfect copy of the original source, with the proper variable names, etc. The only thing missing were comments :)

The legality of you reverse engineering the software is a different matter. But if you have paid the $2500 in question, then you own it.

Re: Ask HN: I've had some software developed, now the coder is holding me for ransom.

#37

Post by andr » Sat, Mar 21, 2009, 5:03 PM UTC

huhtenberg wrote: post #29

A reality check for you. First, $2500 covers 50 hours of work. Do you think your app can be written in that timeframe ? Hardly. So this amount is not a compensation, it's more of a marginally attractive retainer. Second, the 10% share is a joke. The reason being is that if there is a written app, then 10% commission gets you a simple e-com distribution (shopping cart, invoicing, payment processing). The 30% commissio…

Nonsense. Once the developer accepts a $2500 offer he is obliged to do his part of the deal. Not to mention that $2500 can be a lot of money for a lot of people.

The 10% share of profits is a sign of good will on behalf of OP. It was not part of the original agreement and in that question is ridiculous to complain that it is too small. The developer is not a cofounder, he is a freelancer.

I'm sorry but contractual obligations will always come before what seems fair or not.

Re: Ask HN: I've had some software developed, now the coder is holding me for ransom.

#38

Post by dkubb » Sat, Mar 21, 2009, 5:08 PM UTC

huhtenberg wrote: post #29

A reality check for you. First, $2500 covers 50 hours of work. Do you think your app can be written in that timeframe ? Hardly. So this amount is not a compensation, it's more of a marginally attractive retainer. Second, the 10% share is a joke. The reason being is that if there is a written app, then 10% commission gets you a simple e-com distribution (shopping cart, invoicing, payment processing). The 30% commissio…

$2500 for 50 hours of work works out to $50 p/hour. I don't know what the fair market rate is for freelance client side app dev, but that sounds a bit low. Most web designers I know bill higher than that. For $50 an hour I'd either expect the developer to be really junior, or experienced but totally unaware of their own value.

Also, I agree that providing a percentage of the possible profits is not a very good motivator. Unless you're some master marketer with proven businesses experience behind you, it's a bad gamble for the programmer.

Re: Ask HN: I've had some software developed, now the coder is holding me for ransom.

#39

Post by brl » Sat, Mar 21, 2009, 5:09 PM UTC

> I'm thinking the best way would be to get someone to reverse engineer the software

You don't have the source code? He just gives you a crippled binary to demonstrate his progress which only works after authenticating with his server?

I'm not sure why people here are telling you that there is either some ethical or legal problem with taking control of the work you already paid for.

Re: Ask HN: I've had some software developed, now the coder is holding me for ransom.

#40

Post by menloparkbum » Sat, Mar 21, 2009, 5:10 PM UTC

Give up and start over with someone else.

$2500 for 2 months of work comes out to 8 dollars an hour. This isn't a good wage for a programmer anywhere and should have been your first hint that this wasn't going to work out.