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Why Aaron died

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Re: Why Aaron died

#31

Post by knowtheory »

rayiner wrote: post #24
knowtheory wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dude, you're being that guy . Don't be that guy . Why shouldn't a prosecutor consider the personal circumstance of the accused? Certainly this is done in a variety of ways in the law, the decision as to whether a crime has been committed, the decision as to whether to charge an individual, what charges are brought against that individual. Particularly in the case where prosecutors have wide discretion, such as in the…

"That guy" in what sense? The one that thinks that it's not justifiable to accuse someone of causing someone else to kill themselves? I'm making a moral argument, not a jurisprudential one. We are responsible for the consequences of our actions, but our obligation to our fellow man is circumscribed by context and reasonable expectations. There may be situations in which it is reasonable to expect someone to kill hims…

"That guy" in the sense that the case you're making sounds very much as if you are contradicting people who do have intimate knowledge of Aaron Swartz's situation.

Your case is that the culpability for Swartz's death rests solely with Swartz. Swartz's friends and family have asserted with unanimity that Swartz's life was dominated by this prosecution. Ergo, the series of events culminating in Swartz's suicide would not have happened had he not been prosecuted, or, more importantly, prosecuted in this particular way.

When you assert that Ortiz's office is not culpable, it sounds very much like you are contradicting the prosecution's role in Swartz's life and death.

Re: Why Aaron died

#32

Post by rayiner »

knowtheory wrote: post #31
rayiner wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"That guy" in what sense? The one that thinks that it's not justifiable to accuse someone of causing someone else to kill themselves? I'm making a moral argument, not a jurisprudential one. We are responsible for the consequences of our actions, but our obligation to our fellow man is circumscribed by context and reasonable expectations. There may be situations in which it is reasonable to expect someone to kill hims…

"That guy" in the sense that the case you're making sounds very much as if you are contradicting people who do have intimate knowledge of Aaron Swartz's situation. Your case is that the culpability for Swartz's death rests solely with Swartz. Swartz's friends and family have asserted with unanimity that Swartz's life was dominated by this prosecution. Ergo, the series of events culminating in Swartz's suicide would n…

Evaluating whether Ortiz is culpable according to our common morality does not require understanding the specifics of his situation. For any given event, there are an infinite number of causes without which that even would not have happened or would not have happened in that way. Ortiz's prosecution was certainly one of those causes. But it was obviously not the only one, because if it were then that would mean that aggressive prosecution was by itself sufficient to cause someone to commit suicide, which cannot be true because the vast majority of people do not commit suicide in response to aggressive prosecution.

Re: Why Aaron died

#33

Post by wglb »

rayiner wrote: post #32
knowtheory wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"That guy" in the sense that the case you're making sounds very much as if you are contradicting people who do have intimate knowledge of Aaron Swartz's situation. Your case is that the culpability for Swartz's death rests solely with Swartz. Swartz's friends and family have asserted with unanimity that Swartz's life was dominated by this prosecution. Ergo, the series of events culminating in Swartz's suicide would n…

Evaluating whether Ortiz is culpable according to our common morality does not require understanding the specifics of his situation. For any given event, there are an infinite number of causes without which that even would not have happened or would not have happened in that way. Ortiz's prosecution was certainly one of those causes. But it was obviously not the only one, because if it were then that would mean that…

Except that this was the second suicide of someone under prosecution by this office.

Re: Why Aaron died

#34

Post by rayiner »

wglb wrote: post #33
rayiner wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Evaluating whether Ortiz is culpable according to our common morality does not require understanding the specifics of his situation. For any given event, there are an infinite number of causes without which that even would not have happened or would not have happened in that way. Ortiz's prosecution was certainly one of those causes. But it was obviously not the only one, because if it were then that would mean that…

Except that this was the second suicide of someone under prosecution by this office.

Out of how many umpteen cases the office handles each year? A big district like D. Mass has tens of thousands of active criminal cases at any given time.

Re: Why Aaron died

#35

Post by thaumaturgy »

rayiner wrote: post #10

Aaron died because he killed himself. He was the proximate cause of his own death so to speak. Are there other factors without which he wouldn't have killed himself? Indeed, there are an infinite number of them. An infinite number of things could have happened to change the course of his life. Indeed, ultimately you can trace the blame all the way back to his parents (depression is quite heritable): http://depression…

I will muster every ounce of decorum I can manage in responding to some random person's rebuttal to a post written by someone who actually knew and lived with Aaron (seriously, what are you thinking?!), and simply retort:

"That program crashed because it halted. It was the proximate cause of its own crash so to speak. Are there other factors without which it wouldn't have crashed? Indeed, there are an infinite number of them. An infinite number of things could have happened to change the course of the program execution. Indeed, ultimately you can trace the blame all the way back to the program's previous versions (the bug is quite heritable)."

Your comment is not enlightening. It is not insightful. It falls flat on its face if you bother to do even two minutes' Googling to find that while somewhere between 1 in 10 and 1 in 20 Americans suffer from depression (http://www.cdc.gov/features/dsdepression/), "only" 38,000 die of suicide each year (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/suicide.htm).

Saying, "that person committed suicide because they were depressed" is ... I have no polite things to say about it. Saying that to the loved one of someone who just committed suicide is really, fucking, wrong. "Tracing the blame back to his parents" -- i.e., blaming his parents -- is simply, horribly, awfully, inhumane.

If Taren is saying that she doesn't think Aaron would've committed suicide at this time if it weren't for the way that the case was progressing, we have no damn business telling her otherwise, and your completely vacuous comment certainly shouldn't be at the top of the thread about it.

Is it possible maybe that your background as an attorney is coloring your judgement of this case? That you find it uncomfortable that someone else in the legal profession is being faulted for the way that they handled a case that resulted in someone else's completely preventable death?

Re: Why Aaron died

#36

Post by thaumaturgy »

rayiner wrote: post #16
wglb wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You just don't like the implications of the facts. I am not sure you are willing to be acquainted with the facts, regardless of how they are presented or who presents them. I don't think you are close enough to the facts of the situation to speak with such resounding authority about them.

Did it occur to you that the facts with which you are acquainted are not the relevant ones? Indeed, if you're talking about laying the blame for Aaron's suicide on the feet of Carmen Ortiz, isn't it patently ridiculous to consider the intimate facts of his situation relevant? Are we now to charge prosecutors with being sensitive to the details of the personal lives of the people which they prosecute?

> Are we now to charge prosecutors with being sensitive to the details of the personal lives of the people which they prosecute?

Yes.

A justice system that does not behave as though it is dealing with human lives is one which will corrupt itself into encouraging prosecutors to win cases, instead of seek justice.

Re: Why Aaron died

#37

Post by baak »

Cowen wrote: post #23
scarmig wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should be stated that Taren knew Aaron really, really well. Perhaps better than anyone. That can be good or bad in terms of how she's interpreting everything, but it's not like she's randomly bloviating on the Internet.

Nor was I trying to imply that she was. If I did, that was my mistake. But even Taren admits that in his last 24 hours, Aaron did show signs of depression. Obviously that's not a lot of time, but unfortunately it doesn't take a lot of time to do what Aaron did. At the very least, I think that his depression eliminates the idea that his prosecution was unquestionably the primary reason he commit suicide.

I don't think it was only the last 24 hours either. It's kind of hard to ignore signs of it in his blog.

http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/verysick

http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/dying

Re: Why Aaron died

#38

Post by ErrantX »

thaumaturgy wrote: post #35
rayiner wrote: post #10

Aaron died because he killed himself. He was the proximate cause of his own death so to speak. Are there other factors without which he wouldn't have killed himself? Indeed, there are an infinite number of them. An infinite number of things could have happened to change the course of his life. Indeed, ultimately you can trace the blame all the way back to his parents (depression is quite heritable): http://depression…

I will muster every ounce of decorum I can manage in responding to some random person's rebuttal to a post written by someone who actually knew and lived with Aaron (seriously, what are you thinking?!), and simply retort: "That program crashed because it halted. It was the proximate cause of its own crash so to speak. Are there other factors without which it wouldn't have crashed? Indeed, there are an infinite number…

Yes. But. (and this post doesn't intend to argue Aaron was depressed, just thinks about the premise that he might have been)

As someone who suffers a lot with depression, it is quite possible to be depressed and for no one close to you to notice. We can be damn good at hiding it, especially with practice, especially with people we know well.

Some time ago I was living with my partner and she had no clue I had been depressed for months. Then we went out with a couple we hadn't seen for a little while, and afterwards the girl took my partner aside and asked if I was OK.

Taren obviously knows him best, and I agree that if she says Aaron wouldn't have committed suicide if it weren't for the case then clearly that is true. However, I think she is dismissing the impact of depression, or at least dismissing the possibility, to readily. You could turn around and suggest that if he hadn't been in depression (if indeed he was) then the case may have not driven him to suicide.

Depression is a horrible, and terrible thing. Those close to depressed individuals certainly have a lot of insight, but it is still nearly impossible to communicate what it is like even to them.

EDIT: I'm cautious to add this, because it is "one guy on the internet", but reading Taren's post again some of the things she describes strike me as telltale signs of secreted depression. Disappearing on a whim for a hike, for example, is a favourite of mine.

EDIT2: It is also worth noting she describes one common set of symptoms of depression (low activity, disinterest, etc.). However, I for one don't often get them (for example) but I do become deeply involved in subjects for periods of time before moving on. Similar to how she describes. This is a very very common symptom of depression and if you see a friend become obsessed with a string of new things take a second to think about how they might be.

Re: Why Aaron died

#39

Post by [deleted] »

thaumaturgy wrote: post #35
rayiner wrote: post #10

Aaron died because he killed himself. He was the proximate cause of his own death so to speak. Are there other factors without which he wouldn't have killed himself? Indeed, there are an infinite number of them. An infinite number of things could have happened to change the course of his life. Indeed, ultimately you can trace the blame all the way back to his parents (depression is quite heritable): http://depression…

I will muster every ounce of decorum I can manage in responding to some random person's rebuttal to a post written by someone who actually knew and lived with Aaron (seriously, what are you thinking?!), and simply retort: "That program crashed because it halted. It was the proximate cause of its own crash so to speak. Are there other factors without which it wouldn't have crashed? Indeed, there are an infinite number…

[deleted]

Re: Why Aaron died

#40

Post by thaumaturgy »

rayiner wrote: post #34
wglb wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that this was the second suicide of someone under prosecution by this office.

Out of how many umpteen cases the office handles each year? A big district like D. Mass has tens of thousands of active criminal cases at any given time.

Referencing your earlier comment (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5165258), this is a perfect example of what happens when lawyers stop thinking about people and start thinking about cases: it becomes OK that people involved in the case are killing themselves, so long as it doesn't exceed some percentage of cases.

I try really hard not to be one of those laymen that regards all lawyers as soulless, but this right here is the kind of thing that leads to that opinion of the law profession.

"But they handle tens of thousands of cases" should never be used as a defense in the death of a litigant -- a person. At the very least, the death of a litigant should force all parties involved to examine their actions and see if they might have been able to do anything reasonable to prevent it. Justifying it in the abstract, saying essentially that it's OK as long as it's not too many, is despicable.

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