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Why Aaron died

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Re: Why Aaron died

#21

Post by knowtheory »

d0m wrote: post #7

The last sentences makes me think: Ask yourself this: If on January 10, Steve Heymann and Carmen Ortiz at the Massachusetts US Attorney’s office had called Aaron’s lawyer and said they’d realized their mistake and that they were dropping all charges — or even for that matter that they were ready to offer a reasonable plea deal that wouldn’t have marked Aaron as a felon for the rest of his life — would Aaron have kill…

> "a straw that broke the camel's back"

I think you're asking people to oscillate between two poles of a continuum.

The indictment of Aaron Swartz was very clearly, and i think uncontroversially, a life altering experience for Swartz. So I think that Taren, the OP and Aaron's GF, are probably correct on the substance. I think that even if you want to say that the prosecution wasn't the only factor, it is something that moved the needle in Swartz's life, and pushed everything not just a little bit closer (e.g. this was not a straw), but a lot closer to a suicidal event.

Re: Why Aaron died

#22

Post by knowtheory »

rayiner wrote: post #16
wglb wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You just don't like the implications of the facts. I am not sure you are willing to be acquainted with the facts, regardless of how they are presented or who presents them. I don't think you are close enough to the facts of the situation to speak with such resounding authority about them.

Did it occur to you that the facts with which you are acquainted are not the relevant ones? Indeed, if you're talking about laying the blame for Aaron's suicide on the feet of Carmen Ortiz, isn't it patently ridiculous to consider the intimate facts of his situation relevant? Are we now to charge prosecutors with being sensitive to the details of the personal lives of the people which they prosecute?

Dude, you're being that guy. Don't be that guy.

Why shouldn't a prosecutor consider the personal circumstance of the accused? Certainly this is done in a variety of ways in the law, the decision as to whether a crime has been committed, the decision as to whether to charge an individual, what charges are brought against that individual.

Particularly in the case where prosecutors have wide discretion, such as in the case of computer crimes, the question really should be, on what basis are prosecutors making decisions?

And in the event that prosecutors are making capricious or unjust, or disproportionate decisions, then shouldn't they be faced with the consequences of their actions? Shouldn't they consider that they can both ruin and in some cases contribute to the end of someone's life?

Even if you don't think this is part of jurisprudence per se, do we not have an obligation to our fellow man?

Re: Why Aaron died

#23

Post by Cowen »

scarmig wrote: post #20
Cowen wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting how often it needs to be restated that Aaron had depression, which probably had much more to do with his final act than the prosecution did. Was Carmen Ortiz a factor? Maybe. But I don't know, because I didn't know Aaron. What I do know is that depression has its own insidious way of taking hold of even the strongest-seeming people, and it can make them do things that seem completely out of the blue…

It should be stated that Taren knew Aaron really, really well. Perhaps better than anyone. That can be good or bad in terms of how she's interpreting everything, but it's not like she's randomly bloviating on the Internet.

Nor was I trying to imply that she was. If I did, that was my mistake.

But even Taren admits that in his last 24 hours, Aaron did show signs of depression. Obviously that's not a lot of time, but unfortunately it doesn't take a lot of time to do what Aaron did.

At the very least, I think that his depression eliminates the idea that his prosecution was unquestionably the primary reason he commit suicide.

Re: Why Aaron died

#24

Post by rayiner »

knowtheory wrote: post #22
rayiner wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did it occur to you that the facts with which you are acquainted are not the relevant ones? Indeed, if you're talking about laying the blame for Aaron's suicide on the feet of Carmen Ortiz, isn't it patently ridiculous to consider the intimate facts of his situation relevant? Are we now to charge prosecutors with being sensitive to the details of the personal lives of the people which they prosecute?

Dude, you're being that guy . Don't be that guy . Why shouldn't a prosecutor consider the personal circumstance of the accused? Certainly this is done in a variety of ways in the law, the decision as to whether a crime has been committed, the decision as to whether to charge an individual, what charges are brought against that individual. Particularly in the case where prosecutors have wide discretion, such as in the…

"That guy" in what sense? The one that thinks that it's not justifiable to accuse someone of causing someone else to kill themselves? I'm making a moral argument, not a jurisprudential one. We are responsible for the consequences of our actions, but our obligation to our fellow man is circumscribed by context and reasonable expectations. There may be situations in which it is reasonable to expect someone to kill himself, but this was not one of those situations. Carmen Ortiz cannot be held responsible, morally, for someone's unreasonable reaction to her actions. There are things you can hold her responsible for, morally, but suicide is not one of them.

Re: Why Aaron died

#25

Post by vph »

Call it depression or fragile mind or mental health. Whatever you call, it's probably the main factor. Truth is he has a girl friend. He wasn't starving. It wasn't clear if he would be found guilty. Even if he would be found guilty, go to jail, he would still have a very good future (being who he is with all of his connections and accomplishments).

Many folks are in much worse positions everyday and they don't kill themselves.

He was probably a good honorable guy, but he made the mistake of killing himself. There are horrible people that you have to deal with in life; there are horrible situations that you might have to be in. You can't blame them for killing yourself. If you take your own life, it is you first and foremost.

All of these soft talks trying to shift blame to these horrible lawyers are dangerous. The truth is there are bright young folks who are probably have similar mental health issues with Aaron. If the going gets tough, they might think of killing themselves as well. The best message, and the right thing to say is, if you kill yourself, it is your darn fault.

Re: Why Aaron died

#26

Post by xijuan »

I don't want to discuss about why Aaron died. But I can really feel the pain of his girlfriend. I have also been currently struggling with nightmares. I have never realized that dreams can have such an impact in my life. During the day, I would be so busy and thus do not have time to think about the thing I don't want to think about. But every morning before I wake up, I would dream about "the thing".. I especially understand the part where she says that she has to force herself to wake up from the nightmare... I have done that many times as well. But after I wake up, I just have to face the reality ( in Taren's words "the real-life nightmare" ).

Re: Why Aaron died

#27

Post by xijuan »

vph wrote: post #25

Call it depression or fragile mind or mental health. Whatever you call, it's probably the main factor. Truth is he has a girl friend. He wasn't starving. It wasn't clear if he would be found guilty. Even if he would be found guilty, go to jail, he would still have a very good future (being who he is with all of his connections and accomplishments). Many folks are in much worse positions everyday and they don't kill t…

I disagree with you. Everyone has moments of weaknesses. Everyone has the potential to become depressed. Depression is caused by a combination of situational and dispositional factors. Let me give you concrete examples. There are people who are a bit prone to depression. These people would be more likely to feel depressed when exposed to stressors which won't trigger major depression in other people. However, when the stressor gets extremely severe, it would trigger depression even in people who are not prone to depression. A classical example of this is soldiers who suffer from PTSD after being in the wars. Most of them would never have such problem if they have not gone to war and have not been exposed to all these atrocities.

Re: Why Aaron died

#28

Post by xijuan »

rayiner wrote: post #13
wglb wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a very useful comment. Depression was not the issue according to someone much closer to the situation than you. Are his parents depressed? No, I know them both. They are not depressed. Were his grandparents depressed? No. I knew his grandfather.

You just don't like the implications of the facts. If you took 100 people and put them in the same situation, the vast majority of them wouldn't have killed themselves. People face longer sentences and the prospect of being imprisoned among violent offenders everyday without killing themselves. The fact is that suicides are statistically aberrational behavior, even among people in high-stress situations. There are lo…

How much a stressor is stressful to a person is subjective. For a psychopath who always had troubles with the law to face longer sentences, he/she probably wouldn't feel as stressful as Aaron did. In Aaron's case, he is NOT ONLY dealing with depressed feelings. He is also dealing with a lot of anger due to the injustice.

Re: Why Aaron died

#29

Post by droope »

I just want to say six words to people saying aaron commited suicide:

"Make it look like an accident."

I, for one, am deeply sad that he is gone, and wish he wasn't. Being considerate to people who feel this way might pay off, stop being such assholes.

Re: Why Aaron died

#30

Post by droope »

rayiner wrote: post #10

Aaron died because he killed himself. He was the proximate cause of his own death so to speak. Are there other factors without which he wouldn't have killed himself? Indeed, there are an infinite number of them. An infinite number of things could have happened to change the course of his life. Indeed, ultimately you can trace the blame all the way back to his parents (depression is quite heritable): http://depression…

"Aaron died becaue he killed himself." <- I'm with stupid.
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