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Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out

harpers.org

31–40 of 270 posts

Re: Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out

#31
post #6

I agree with the sentiment here, but some of the specific claims are certainly wince-worthy. College prank? Greatest prodigy of his generation? Little to no commercial value? All those claims are a lot more complicated than that! Not to mention it makes it sound like Ortiz was cooking this all up behind closed doors and everyone else was shocked! shocked! to realize how the "prosecutorial misconduct" had gotten out o…

I agree that the lionization of Aaron is maybe getting a little out of hand. He was an accomplished and notable young person, few would deny this, but let's keep it realistic.

Re: Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out

#32
post #6

I agree with the sentiment here, but some of the specific claims are certainly wince-worthy. College prank? Greatest prodigy of his generation? Little to no commercial value? All those claims are a lot more complicated than that! Not to mention it makes it sound like Ortiz was cooking this all up behind closed doors and everyone else was shocked! shocked! to realize how the "prosecutorial misconduct" had gotten out o…

I agree that the lionization of Aaron is maybe getting a little out of hand. He was an accomplished and notable young person, few would deny this, but let's keep it realistic.

The easiest way to be born a genius is to become rich or die.

Re: Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out

#33
Interesting note -- the WSJ editorial report (a Fox show I doubt most HN folk regularly catch) had a segment on the Swartz case. One editor (Joseph Rago) came out strongly in his favor, speaking out against Ortiz and prosecutorial overreach.

I think it was Sun Tzu who said, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". It's important to realize there is still a strong strain of libertarian thought on the right, that is supportive of civil liberties and is concerned about the ever-increasing power and overreach of the government.

Re: Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out

#34
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Elsevier et al have done very well selling articles bundled as journal subscriptions. Claiming articles have no commercial value while at the same time railing against publishers is cognitive dissonance at its finest.

His point is that the scholarly articles (like diamonds) can be easily tracked, and therefore determined if illegally sold or not. Since legitimate buyers - University professors, etc - want to be sure they are on the up and up, the won't purchase illegally obtained goods. Therefore, there would have been no buyers for the articles "stolen".

Exactly. I can't believe that Aaron would have been able to sell them, even if he had intended to. And I can't seriously believe that he ever intended to, or that the prosecutors could have truly believed that he intended to.

Yes, they are doing that themselves. But hopefully not for much longer if the internet has anything to say about that. I applaud all of the scientists who are working hard to make their research more open.

Re: Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out

#35
post #28
post #3

Why do they call it a prank? My impression is what was nothing of the sort.

No-one got hurt. No damage was done. If I have to chose between "prank" or "federal crime" I'm going with prank. 'Pranks' have a history in political activism - see La Barbe or Pussy Riot or others.

> No-one got hurt. No damage was done.

If a burglar is sneaking out of a house with a sack of stolen goods, and the police catch him and return everything to the owner, you'd still consider that a crime, right?

If so, then you agree that situations where nobody is hurt and no permanent damage done can still be crimes.

Re: Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out

#36
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. While Ortiz will be the convenient (and rightful, I suppose) scapegoat in this instance, she's a symptom of the problem and not the cause. There are far more fundamental problems with the DoJ, and until they're addressed (time and cost of mounting a defence, overly aggressive prosecutions, lack of oversight and discretion), nothing will change.

I know that "don't treat the symptoms! treat the root cause!" is a common, almost unassailable sentiment, but lately I've been thinking there are problems with it. In order for it to be completely ineffective to "treat the symptom", it rests on the assumption that successfully treating the symptom will have zero effect on the cause behind it. A good example of that is taking pain meds to mask the pain of a knee injur…

I agree with your point, but treating the symptom must be done in such a way that the problem is still seen to be a problem. Another case in point was when the banking collapse hit, 'leaders' blamed things like 'excess greed' and so on, and dodged the real problem (IMHO).

I'm afraid of throwing Ortiz to the wolves, washing our hands and saying, "Well, that's that."

Re: Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out

#37

Important part: Prosecutors Ortiz and Stephen Heymann turned to a standard trick while pursuing the case, mounting a total of thirteen felony counts against Swartz and arguing that his college prank aimed at “liberating” a collection of academic articles with little commercial value was a serious crime. Although each of these counts bordered on the preposterous, Ortiz and Heymann clearly reckoned that at least one or…

Thanks for highlighting that; I read the article and felt that this paragraph stood out for the right reasons.

I've read some negative comments about the article, which surprised me; as this paragraph proves, the article isn't painting Ortiz as a rogue exception to the rule.

Re: Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out

#38
post #6

I agree with the sentiment here, but some of the specific claims are certainly wince-worthy. College prank? Greatest prodigy of his generation? Little to no commercial value? All those claims are a lot more complicated than that! Not to mention it makes it sound like Ortiz was cooking this all up behind closed doors and everyone else was shocked! shocked! to realize how the "prosecutorial misconduct" had gotten out o…

I agree that the lionization of Aaron is maybe getting a little out of hand. He was an accomplished and notable young person, few would deny this, but let's keep it realistic.

Which statements, specifically, do you see as being unrealistic?

Edit: I'd like to know what the downvoter is thinking, too, but I wonder if I'll get any answers.

Re: Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out

#39
post #17

This is a very intelligent, informed summary of the mounting case against the prosecutors. The author minces no words when describing Ortiz' and Heymann's strategy of charging Swartz with a battery of preposterous charges with the express intent of making any action except accepting a plea bargain (and thereby pleading guilty to all charges) the only reasonable approach: "[T]hey assumed that the risk of their success…

This. While Ortiz will be the convenient (and rightful, I suppose) scapegoat in this instance, she's a symptom of the problem and not the cause. There are far more fundamental problems with the DoJ, and until they're addressed (time and cost of mounting a defence, overly aggressive prosecutions, lack of oversight and discretion), nothing will change.

I only partially agree.

My personal belief is that when prosecutors know that there is a chance of cases blowing up and destroying their careers, as is happening here, they have an incentive to be careful. And likely will be more careful for some time. This is a good thing - even if it helps much less than fixing the system.

That is why in many, many corporate cultures there is an effective policy of responding to problems by publicly identifying a scapegoat and throwing the book at them. It is an easy action that makes a marginal difference for a short time.

So this is better than nothing. Unfortunately it is not very good. First of all the deterrent effect is only temporary. Secondly you get two-tiered justice where defendants who seem likely to have the potential to raise such a firestorm of protest are more protected than defendants who don't. Thirdly the identification of a scapegoat relieves pressure to come up with a better fix.

Therefore I am modestly in support of the current corrective process. I would like to see something better. I will encourage better things. I know the shortcomings of scapegoating. However it is better than nothing. If this is all that this case is likely to achieve, it was still a somewhat useful response.

Re: Carmen Ortiz Strikes Out

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is probably the most worrying issue with this article. It places the blame on two individuals who are characterized as out of control instead of a system that is out of control. The entire system needs to be held accountable and corrected and those highlighted as having benefited their careers through this widespread misconduct should be individually held accountable just like individuals were held accountable a…

Mother Theresa once said that when she looked upon the many she could do nothing, but when she focused on the one, she could do something. The same applies here. Someone needs to be held accountable. Change needs to start somewhere.

Someone needs to be held accountable. Ortiz is someone. Therefore...
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