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Never argue with your boss (2009)

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Re: Never argue with your boss (2009)

#31

Post by LtWorf »

specproc wrote: post #9

The article seems to be about arguing with your boss in _public_. Having a fight with anyone in public in a professional environment is pretty intense behaviour. Not saying I've never done it, but it's not usually productive. It takes a lot of skill to get things done your way without alienating people. We should always be careful of how we "debate" in a professional context. Discussion habits picked up on HN transla…

> Don't bitch, or moan, or rub it in if things go wrong. Chain of command. One of these days you'll be there too.

No I don't think it's how it works at all. If you want to show value you should absolutely point out you were right.

Re: Never argue with your boss (2009)

#32

Post by aleph_minus_one »

DrScientist wrote: post #25

I think there is a strong cultural effects to whether this is true. I've worked in multinationals and I've noticed that in the US ( east coast in particular ) it's much more hierarchical - where arguing with your boss in public could be a firing offence. This is less so in Europe.

> I've worked in multinationals and I've noticed that in the US ( east coast in particular ) it's much more hierarchical - where arguing with your boss in public could be a firing offence.

> This is less so in Europe.

On the other hand, in big German companies there often exist more hierarchy levels. In this sense, I would rather call German companies more hierarchical.

The difference is (also from your description) rather that in the USA, bosses often expect their underlings to be much more "ideologically aligned" to the their principles [1], which they often don't state/disclose from beginning. Enforcing such an ideological alignment is much less accepted in big German companies (at least in the lower hierarchical levels).

---

[1] In German, there exists the word "[die] Linientreue" for this, which can literally translated to "line loyalty". Dictionaries give the translation "true to party principles", but I would claim that this "politically connotated" translation is rather restrictive.

Re: Never argue with your boss (2009)

#34

Post by oytis »

I feel like the real takeaway should be "don't make a competition out of a technical discussion". A culture that doesn't allow openly debating technical decisions sounds like one I wouldn't want to be part of.

Re: Never argue with your boss (2009)

#35

Post by aleph_minus_one »

khalic wrote: post #27

In a great display of irony, these comments are arguing hard and publicly against the conclusion

> In a great display of irony, these comments are arguing hard and publicly against the conclusion

There is no boss involved in the HN discussion. :-)

Re: Never argue with your boss (2009)

#37

Post by LtWorf »

surfsvammel wrote: post #28

Seems to be very dependant on culture at the workplace. Sure, I agree, for when I worried in for example Singapore, I would not agree for Scandinavia

I live in Sweden. They are really really really really overly sensitive about anything.

The being direct thing only applies when they can be mean to you, not when they did something wrong.

Re: Never argue with your boss (2009)

#38

Post by atoav »

You don't necessarily need to argue a lot of times. Often the much better way is to deploy the rhetoric equivalent of a Judo throw, by using the momentum of the other side and ever so gently redirect it to have them lose their footing a few steps later. Do this well enough and it isn't even immediately clear who caused it.

Directly arguing has the downside that people with big egos will harden their positions even (or rather: especially) if they suspect they they might be wrong. If your goal is to let of steam while causing destruction, that is a valid strategy, if your goal is to reframe a topic, refute a point and/or win over the room, it often is not.

That all being said, we are talking about a public argument, not about private discussions. If you can make good points, bring the receipts arguing for those points is a good idea. However if given the chance it is a good idea to make these point in a smaller circle, in writing or in a one-in-one with your boss first, to give them the chance to agree with you when it is easy, instead of feeling put on the spot in front of everybody.

Re: Never argue with your boss (2009)

#39

Post by specproc »

LtWorf wrote: post #31
specproc wrote: post #9

The article seems to be about arguing with your boss in _public_. Having a fight with anyone in public in a professional environment is pretty intense behaviour. Not saying I've never done it, but it's not usually productive. It takes a lot of skill to get things done your way without alienating people. We should always be careful of how we "debate" in a professional context. Discussion habits picked up on HN transla…

> Don't bitch, or moan, or rub it in if things go wrong. Chain of command. One of these days you'll be there too. No I don't think it's how it works at all. If you want to show value you should absolutely point out you were right.

There's always time for lessons learned, but gloating isn't mature or helpful.

Honestly, I've never stuck around with a bad boss long enough to get into this sort of situation with them. Life is too short.

Most managers I've had a long-term relationship with have been, at worst, overwhelmed or utterly beholden to bad priorities set further up the chain. They all have been decent enough folks, trying to do their best for the organisation.

You gotta spend all your time with these people. Rubbing your correctness in their face ain't going to make either of your work lives better.

Try doing the same with your partner, see how that goes.

Re: Never argue with your boss (2009)

#40

Post by specproc »

oumua_don17 wrote: post #30
specproc wrote: post #9

The article seems to be about arguing with your boss in _public_. Having a fight with anyone in public in a professional environment is pretty intense behaviour. Not saying I've never done it, but it's not usually productive. It takes a lot of skill to get things done your way without alienating people. We should always be careful of how we "debate" in a professional context. Discussion habits picked up on HN transla…

>> Arguing with your boss in private Never do that if you're working under a toxic boss, in which case arguing in public is better if at all but one should anyways be working hard to find a new boss!!!

Yeah, hundred percent, find a new boss.
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