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Never argue with your boss (2009)

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Re: Never argue with your boss (2009)

#21

Post by aleph_minus_one »

onesandofgrain wrote: post #7

Have seen this myself in practise. Just like in this case it didnt end well. But this «lesson» so to speak is just the same concept in everyday life applied to work. You should generally never argue with authorities publically. It never ends well. Perhaps some free speech fanatics mean otherwise, but free speech doesn’t really exist.

> You should generally never argue with authorities publically. It never ends well. Perhaps some free speech fanatics mean otherwise, but free speech doesn’t really exist.

This is not so much about free speech (because if it was, the problem wouldn't exist so much in countries that have a different concept of free speech from the USA), but rather that a scientific education strongly nudges you into becoming a "truth-seeker", and in pursuit of this argue for your point.

This is why in particular geeks/nerds love to argue with their boss when they believe he isn't correct.

So, I rather fault employees that they look for employees with a university degree, while in reality they want employees that don't want to start scientific disputes with their boss ( exactly what the scientific education at a university drills you towards).

---

Addendum: In https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48918117 silentmafia writes down a related observation:

> In academia arguing is sort of your job, or at least part of it.

Re: Never argue with your boss (2009)

#22

Post by msejas »

I disagree with the final outcome that's just in private. If it's an open brainstorm to decide on solution, you don't have time to book the secret 1 to 1.

I think it's just respecting hierarchy, disagree, raise your concerns, if your boss overrules just accept it, you made your concerns known, they and the team heard of you, if they proceed anyways they accept the risk.

No point in forcing yourself to be the shot caller when it's not your job or responsibility to make the final decision.

Accepting the team consensus and respecting hierarchy is part of the game, unless you are a business owner, you are paid to do as told as an expert give your opinion. Nothing more you can do beyond that.

Re: Never argue with your boss (2009)

#23

Post by silentmafia »

datakan wrote: post #20
antonvs wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the problem with all this is the unquestioned validity of the idea of a "superior". There are things that managers are good at and things that their staff are good at. For technical roles, a manager doesn't need to be superior to their staff when it comes to technical decisions - in fact if they are, it implies a problem. Once you start viewing work as a collaborative exercise, a lot of these problems disappe…

A manager is the subordinate. Their entire role is to provide for the employees the things and support needed to get their jobs done. Corporations arent the military, there are no "superior's" except in the minds of the mentally and emotionally fragile who think they were put there to rule over others. Steve Jobs famously said, "I don't hire smart people to tell them what to do. I hire them to tell me what to do". He…

yet the salaries impose hierarchies..

Re: Never argue with your boss (2009)

#24

Post by energy123 »

> how could they trust me as a member of their team? I might turn on them next.

This is also why you shouldn't gossip negatively about anyone, and you shouldn't make jokes about employee termination. People will view you as a threat. The threat perception will become dislike and they won't even know why they dislike you, they just do. Then they will hallucinate that you're a hopeless poor performer whatever your performance actually is, because they've already emotionally decided that you're awful.

Re: Never argue with your boss (2009)

#25

Post by DrScientist »

I think there is a strong cultural effects to whether this is true.

I've worked in multinationals and I've noticed that in the US ( east coast in particular ) it's much more hierarchical - where arguing with your boss in public could be a firing offence.

This is less so in Europe.

Re: Never argue with your boss (2009)

#26

Post by jongjong »

100%, don't argue with your boss. Sometimes, depending on how they phrased a statement or proposal, you can present contradictory facts but never claim to have the answer.

Either the boss wants to hear your opinion or they don't. You need to look at body language, tone and wording to decide. In any case, they must decide.

Disagreeing in front of other employees is especially risky... It can work in your favor sometimes, but only if it serves the boss... For example, you might be providing the boss with an opportunity to demonstrate humility over a topic which they don't pride themselves on. If the boss switches and agrees with you, can improve your image in front of other employees and the boss gets to look like they are a good listener and rational decision maker. Everyone wins.

It also rests heavily on the boss' personality. Some people always have to be right, else they hate you.

Re: Never argue with your boss (2009)

#29

Post by DrScientist »

datakan wrote: post #20
antonvs wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the problem with all this is the unquestioned validity of the idea of a "superior". There are things that managers are good at and things that their staff are good at. For technical roles, a manager doesn't need to be superior to their staff when it comes to technical decisions - in fact if they are, it implies a problem. Once you start viewing work as a collaborative exercise, a lot of these problems disappe…

A manager is the subordinate. Their entire role is to provide for the employees the things and support needed to get their jobs done. Corporations arent the military, there are no "superior's" except in the minds of the mentally and emotionally fragile who think they were put there to rule over others. Steve Jobs famously said, "I don't hire smart people to tell them what to do. I hire them to tell me what to do". He…

There are two things here - Steve might well hire smart people to tell him what to do - but in the end Steve made the choices and drove them through.

Management is all about choices with limited information - there is rarely one clear and obvious route forward, but a strategy of following all routes simultaneously will lead to failure as there needs to be focus.

So somebody has to make that choice and then drive that focus through the organisation.

This can be very difficult when the choice isn't clear and obvious - as lots of smart people will have different views.

That's the art of management - you need to make the right choices most of the time. and when you've made the wrong one correct quickly, but you also need to be able to get the organisation to rally behind that choice, even if not everyone agrees.

Re: Never argue with your boss (2009)

#30

Post by oumua_don17 »

specproc wrote: post #9

The article seems to be about arguing with your boss in _public_. Having a fight with anyone in public in a professional environment is pretty intense behaviour. Not saying I've never done it, but it's not usually productive. It takes a lot of skill to get things done your way without alienating people. We should always be careful of how we "debate" in a professional context. Discussion habits picked up on HN transla…

>> Arguing with your boss in private

Never do that if you're working under a toxic boss, in which case arguing in public is better if at all but one should anyways be working hard to find a new boss!!!

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