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Italians and Dutch share the same gestural instinct for teaching

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Re: Italians and Dutch share the same gestural instinct for teaching

#31

Post by vanderZwan »

arianvanp wrote: post #13

I only realized that dutch people are handful communicators when moving abroad. Apparently I do it unconsciously all the time. For example we gesture when something tastes good and I don't even say "tastes good" out loud i just wave my hand next to my cheek. But quickly learnt that people think you're crazy in the head instead of complimenting the chef. https://youtube.com/shorts/5a9Md32gSQg?is=fJ9BYQEt-CpEUE-g

Now I wonder if mixed Italian-Dutch children have two different forms of communication by gestures. Would be interesting, especially since neither are true sign languages.

Re: Italians and Dutch share the same gestural instinct for teaching

#32

Post by vanderZwan »

DonHopkins wrote: post #28
bryanrasmussen wrote: post #8

often when I discuss very abstract complicated subjects I use hand gestures to "place" the interlocking concepts under discussion at different positions in front of me while talking, and as I talk I will then refer to these "virtual objects" via gestures as a way of referring back to the previous point where they were brought in and "positioned" in the discussion.

That's a thing in sign languages like ASL. You can establish a person, object, idea, timeline, etc. at a location in signing space, then refer back to it later by pointing. Sort of like spatial pronouns. Hearing people do a looser version too. I constantly find myself putting abstract ideas "over here" and "over there", then gesturing back at those virtual objects later in the conversation. Basically: pointing as pro…

Yeah, one of the cool things about sign languages that most people don't realize is that it's spatial, and that allows it to be more "parallel" compared to vocal languages because its "information channels" (e.g. two hands, facial expressions and "whole body language") can be placed side by side inside that space.

Of course spoken language also has multiple channels (e.g. tone and sound) but they still lack the spatial aspect.

Apparently, people who pick up sign language later in life commonly typically make what is known as a "split verb error", where they structure their signs sequentially like vocal languages when they should do those things simultaneously.

Re: Italians and Dutch share the same gestural instinct for teaching

#33

Post by vanderZwan »

There's a hypothesis that sign language evolved before vocal languages, and that the latter "took over" as the default because it's energetically much more efficient. There's lots of circumstantial evidence but of course it's impossible to ever conclusively prove. This feels like another data point in favor of it.

Re: Italians and Dutch share the same gestural instinct for teaching

#34

Post by throw838394 »

crabbone wrote: post #22

It was drilled into me since childhood that speaking with your hands is lacking "class". On a conscious level, I know not to judge people by something as superficial, but on subconscious level, if someone is swinging their hands in the air while talking to me: I don't want to talk to them. It's the same with being loud, or using stop words etc. I haven't been to Italy, but this was a huge deal for me living in Israel…

I was taught the same thing. In particular I kept being told that gesturing is an indication of a poor vocabulary. So I taught myself to never do it.

I do not mind gesturing itself done by other people, but I’ve found that it correlates a lot with violating my personal space. A lot of gesturing ends up being done right in front of my face, or just too close to my body in general. And that annoys me and makes me lose respect for the person doing that.

Re: Italians and Dutch share the same gestural instinct for teaching

#35

Post by detritus »

I find there's a certain flavour of Scot that's quite gesticulative - I know that I'm one. My partner's Italian and I guess my gesticulation's ramped up since we've been together because when I watched footage from an event recently, I was borderline horrified at how wild my expressions and gesticulations were, especially as the person I was talking to (well 'at', seemingly) is an impressively English sort. Made for quite the contrast in manner.

I looked like I was trying to sell Guybrush Threepwood a sinking ship... .

Re: Italians and Dutch share the same gestural instinct for teaching

#36

Post by sph »

agiacalone wrote: post #4

As a Sicilian and university computer science lecturer, I can say that hand gestures are my primary way of communicating concepts. So much so that the old joke holds true. How do you stop an Italian from talking? Tell them to sit on their hands.

I am Italian as well and love the joke, but it always makes it sound like any other culture doesn’t use their hands to convey meaning, which is obviously false. I do not notice a large difference between a northern Italian like me and any other American speaker, for instance.

Of course there will be a noticeable increase in gesticulation in an angry southern Italian person compared to a mild-mannered Englishman droning about philosophy.

Perhaps the difference lies not in the amount of gesturing, but in the heightened emotions of us southern Europeans.

Re: Italians and Dutch share the same gestural instinct for teaching

#37

Post by gobdovan »

vanderZwan wrote: post #33

There's a hypothesis that sign language evolved before vocal languages, and that the latter "took over" as the default because it's energetically much more efficient. There's lots of circumstantial evidence but of course it's impossible to ever conclusively prove. This feels like another data point in favor of it.

As stated, this is too vague to be much of a hypothesis. Animals, including humans, communicate multimodally, so gesture and vocalisation are not mutually exclusive evolutionary stages. To claim that one evolved before the other, you'd need to define some relevant markers, such as grammar, cultural transmission or some anatomical adaptation.

Re: Italians and Dutch share the same gestural instinct for teaching

#38

Post by HappyPanacea »

crabbone wrote: post #22

It was drilled into me since childhood that speaking with your hands is lacking "class". On a conscious level, I know not to judge people by something as superficial, but on subconscious level, if someone is swinging their hands in the air while talking to me: I don't want to talk to them. It's the same with being loud, or using stop words etc. I haven't been to Italy, but this was a huge deal for me living in Israel…

> but this was a huge deal for me living in Israel.

I lived in Israel my whole life and I don't remember ever encountering the notion that 'speaking with your hands is lacking "class"' or that ' It's generally seen as "proper" to not use your hands.'. I just looked and easily found two videos with Israel's Prime Minister where he used hand gestures while talking.

> In the military, especially in basic training, that would probably send you doing pushups.

No, I don't think so, why would it?

Re: Italians and Dutch share the same gestural instinct for teaching

#40

Post by wkjagt »

arianvanp wrote: post #13

I only realized that dutch people are handful communicators when moving abroad. Apparently I do it unconsciously all the time. For example we gesture when something tastes good and I don't even say "tastes good" out loud i just wave my hand next to my cheek. But quickly learnt that people think you're crazy in the head instead of complimenting the chef. https://youtube.com/shorts/5a9Md32gSQg?is=fJ9BYQEt-CpEUE-g

I also learned in an awkward way that waving my hand next to my cheek isn't an international sign for lekker. I moved to Canada about 20 years ago, and still sometimes do it, but apparently here it means you're signaling that someone is a little bit crazy.
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