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Iranian Women Graduate in Stem 3× the Rate of U.S. Women and Has 5× More PhDs

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Re: Iranian Women Graduate in Stem 3× the Rate of U.S. Women and Has 5× More PhDs

#31

Post by lurkercodemnky »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #28
lurkercodemnky wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Number of scientists and engineers per capital is directly propotional to GDP per capital [1]. I meant the fraction. Do you have a plot of number of college gradutates on the same axes? I am sure it will be a steeper line.

> meant the fraction Decent hypothesis, but not substantiated. In 2020 the fraction of graduates who were STEM in China was 41%, Russia 37%, Germany 36%, Iran 33%, India 30%, and France 26% [1]. If we take the eleven countries in that article's GDP per capita, we find no statistically-significant relationship. [1] https://cset.georgetown.edu/article/the-global-distribution-...

Thanks for correcting me -- the correlation is weaker than I would expect; though I will stand by my original commentary on the broader cultural issues.

It would be interesting to contrast how much of them are STEM vs other "real world degrees" that get a job (accounting, hotel management or whatever) vs the "liberal arts" degrees.

> The WEF report identified China, India, the United States, Russia, Iran, Indonesia, and Japan as the top seven STEM graduate-producing countries in the world.

I think the US (and probably Germany too) is an outlier here because of the number of immigrants who arrive to study STEM degrees.

Re: Iranian Women Graduate in Stem 3× the Rate of U.S. Women and Has 5× More PhDs

#32

Post by Dylan16807 »

wanderlust123 wrote: post #21
gruez wrote: post #5

>Data showing Iranian women outperforming American women in STEM by a factor of nearly three doesn’t support that case, so it doesn’t get reported. I thought the standard explanation for this was that in patriarchal societies women get "hard" degrees because that's their only way out of being oppressed as a housewife, and in more egalitarian societies women pursue what they like?

Except what you are saying doesn’t really make sense and is implicitly sexist. You are assuming women in those countries don’t enjoy studying these subjects. Also, to pursue a hard STEM degree or phd would detract from being a housewife, so no “oppressive” husband would allow that in the first place. Ergo the women pursuing these paths are not oppressed in the first place.

> You are assuming women in those countries don’t enjoy studying these subjects.

It does not assume that. Even with equal enjoyment of multiple subjects, there's a lot of other factors that affect what you study. And you can enjoy subjects that aren't your favorite.

> Also, to pursue a hard STEM degree or phd would detract from being a housewife, so no “oppressive” husband would allow that in the first place. Ergo the women pursuing these paths are not oppressed in the first place.

What percent of the women in these programs are already married? That counterargument only applies to women that currently have husbands, not women worried about future husbands.

Re: Iranian Women Graduate in Stem 3× the Rate of U.S. Women and Has 5× More PhDs

#33

Post by JumpCrisscross »

lurkercodemnky wrote: post #31
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> meant the fraction Decent hypothesis, but not substantiated. In 2020 the fraction of graduates who were STEM in China was 41%, Russia 37%, Germany 36%, Iran 33%, India 30%, and France 26% [1]. If we take the eleven countries in that article's GDP per capita, we find no statistically-significant relationship. [1] https://cset.georgetown.edu/article/the-global-distribution-...

Thanks for correcting me -- the correlation is weaker than I would expect; though I will stand by my original commentary on the broader cultural issues. It would be interesting to contrast how much of them are STEM vs other "real world degrees" that get a job (accounting, hotel management or whatever) vs the "liberal arts" degrees. > The WEF report identified China, India, the United States, Russia, Iran, Indonesia,…

> think the US (and probably Germany too) is an outlier here because of the number of immigrants who arrive to study STEM degrees

"About 30 percent of STEM degree holders living in the United States are immigrants" [1].

So sigificant as a fraction of immigrants. But not particularly meaningful to the trend. (I suspected the effect you hypothesise might exist within countries. But alas, higher-income households produce more STEM graduates [2].)

[1] https://spectrum.ieee.org/stem-immigration-diversity-gaps#:~...

[2] https://www.brookings.edu/articles/economic-inequalities-amo...

Re: Iranian Women Graduate in Stem 3× the Rate of U.S. Women and Has 5× More PhDs

#34

Post by nixon_why69 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #18
lurkercodemnky wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> maybe you shouldn't be lecturing "patriarchal backward societies"? It's perfectly fair to criticize modern Iran. Particularly when it comes to mis-allocating its skilled population and history. Look at it from the perspective of fitness: if Iran had let these women study and work freely, and had invested its resources in growing its economy instead of a dud of a nuclear programme, might it–not Israel–be the region'…

Iran did suspend the nuclear program in exchange for sanctions relief. What happened to that deal again?

Re: Iranian Women Graduate in Stem 3× the Rate of U.S. Women and Has 5× More PhDs

#35

Post by chneu »

csomar wrote: post #17

This is not limited to Iran. Many Islamic countries have very high female participation in STEM because these degrees grant women greater freedoms. Iran (and most Muslim countries) is not Afghanistan; women do have a certain degree of freedom, and in some countries it's considerable. Another point about STEM: families are more likely to accept, and even encourage, their women to go abroad and study. This is strictly…

The assumption/view that STEM nerds don't fuck is hilarious.

I'm not commenting on the validity of it or anything, it's just funny.

Re: Iranian Women Graduate in Stem 3× the Rate of U.S. Women and Has 5× More PhDs

#36

Post by toomuchtodo »

lurkercodemnky wrote: post #25
echelon wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't people decide for themselves what matters? Life is a short few trips around the sun, then eternal annihilation. If you really want to ascribe "value" to it: prosperity tends to create chill attitudes. You see this in individuals (nepotism) and in societies. It's just evolutionary economics: genes, ideas, species spend in times of plenty, save in times of drought.

Is that the excuse for the life of online dating apps and only fans? You're destroying the society which your "conservative" "backward" forefathers built.

> You're destroying the society which your "conservative" "backward" forefathers built.

“The dead should not rule the living" —- Thomas Jefferson

Re: Iranian Women Graduate in Stem 3× the Rate of U.S. Women and Has 5× More PhDs

#37

Post by tetrisgm »

Happy to explain this one as I have relatives from there. The only way to leave and get a visa abroad is to study elsewhere.

I witnessed this myself in the daughter of family friends whose eyes were dead and even though we met her, every second of her thoughts were dedicated to studying so she could GTFO as fast as humanly possible.

It's that, or stay in Iran. What would you choose?

Re: Iranian Women Graduate in Stem 3× the Rate of U.S. Women and Has 5× More PhDs

#38

Post by JumpCrisscross »

nixon_why69 wrote: post #34
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> maybe you shouldn't be lecturing "patriarchal backward societies"? It's perfectly fair to criticize modern Iran. Particularly when it comes to mis-allocating its skilled population and history. Look at it from the perspective of fitness: if Iran had let these women study and work freely, and had invested its resources in growing its economy instead of a dud of a nuclear programme, might it–not Israel–be the region'…

Iran did suspend the nuclear program in exchange for sanctions relief. What happened to that deal again?

> Iran did suspend the nuclear program in exchange for sanctions relief. What happened to that deal again?

It got torn up, which is a shame. That said, Tehran made the choices to (a) resume work on a nuclear weapon, (b) endorse Hamas and the October 7 attacks, (c) half ass their negotiations in Geneva and now (d) attack all of their neighbors.

Those were major miscalculations. Layered on top of lots of little ones, e.g. ordering Hezbollah to blow its armory on symbolic rocket attacks. The JCPoA was a good deal. That doesn't make the current regime in Iran a smart actor.

Re: Iranian Women Graduate in Stem 3× the Rate of U.S. Women and Has 5× More PhDs

#39

Post by nixon_why69 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #38
nixon_why69 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iran did suspend the nuclear program in exchange for sanctions relief. What happened to that deal again?

> Iran did suspend the nuclear program in exchange for sanctions relief. What happened to that deal again? It got torn up, which is a shame. That said, Tehran made the choices to (a) resume work on a nuclear weapon, (b) endorse Hamas and the October 7 attacks, (c) half ass their negotiations in Geneva and now (d) attack all of their neighbors. Those were major miscalculations. Layered on top of lots of little ones, e…

Its damned if you do, damned if you don't as long as Israel effectively dominates USA middle east policy.

If they negotiate, the deal gets torn up at best, or they get attacked during negotiations at worst. If they maintain any sort of self-defense capability, that's seen as a threat to Israel.

If they shoot back after we bomb 150 schoolgirls, they're the aggressor.

Re: Iranian Women Graduate in Stem 3× the Rate of U.S. Women and Has 5× More PhDs

#40

Post by JumpCrisscross »

nixon_why69 wrote: post #39
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Iran did suspend the nuclear program in exchange for sanctions relief. What happened to that deal again? It got torn up, which is a shame. That said, Tehran made the choices to (a) resume work on a nuclear weapon, (b) endorse Hamas and the October 7 attacks, (c) half ass their negotiations in Geneva and now (d) attack all of their neighbors. Those were major miscalculations. Layered on top of lots of little ones, e…

Its damned if you do, damned if you don't as long as Israel effectively dominates USA middle east policy. If they negotiate, the deal gets torn up at best, or they get attacked during negotiations at worst. If they maintain any sort of self-defense capability, that's seen as a threat to Israel. If they shoot back after we bomb 150 schoolgirls, they're the aggressor.

> damned if you do, damned if you don't as long as Israel effectively dominates USA middle east policy

Sort of. Israel is the Middle East's regional hegemon. And America is a superpower. Picking both as national enemies was and remains a strategic blunder.

> If they negotiate, the deal gets torn up at best, or they get attacked during negotiations at worst

Again, the deal getting torn up is sad. But it's within the context of decades of antagonism towards powerful enemies. And nobody serious (other than Iran and Oman) seem to be claiming that Iran was open to giving up its nuclear ambitions in Geneva.

> If they maintain any sort of self-defense capability, that's seen as a threat to Israel

They literally chant death to Israel and fund the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah who want to eradicate it. (Weapons aren't inherently offensive or defensive, though they can tend to be more useful as one versus another. Ballistic missiles and nuclear bombs are closer to inherently offensive than inherently defensive.)

> If they shoot back after we bomb 150 schoolgirls, they're the aggressor

Nobody serious claims this. What they are doing by shooting back (and not surrendering) is continuing a losing cycle of violence.

The only thing looser than America's theory of victory in this war is Iran's.

Note: when Iran started shooting at Bahrain, Oman and Azerbaijan, it was the aggressor. Someone shooting at you doesn't mean carte blanche for blowing up non-belligerants.

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