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We asked 15k European devs about jobs, salaries, and AI [pdf]

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Re: We asked 15k European devs about jobs, salaries, and AI [pdf]

#31

Post by KellyCriterion »

simfoo wrote: post #25
rockyj wrote: post #3

Yeah, the numbers in Germany are not so rosy. If these numbers are true, we are looking at - - An "average" salary of around 65K / year - This after (an average of) 5-6 rounds of interviews - 6 months of "probation", with only 2 weeks of notice - And all after 4-6 years of degree/s and 4-5 years of experience (so around 10 years of investment) Then after taxation 65K annually means around 3500/month in pocket. Then w…

Whenever I read those reports I can't help but wonder who they are actually asking. I'm definitely in a bubble working in Munich and either for US subsidiaries or at least close to them (automotive, ai, robotics, aerospace and others) - but it's a pretty big bubble because it's easily thousands of engineers within one or two hops. And we all make north of 100k€! No-one with more than 5-10 years of experience would ac…

Want a bet?

Loose your job right now and you wont see this 100k+ for a veryyyyy looooong time. People are taking cuts of 50% just to get any employment.

Re: We asked 15k European devs about jobs, salaries, and AI [pdf]

#32

Post by KellyCriterion »

NoiseBert69 wrote: post #15
funkyfiddler369 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germans won't tell you how much they earn, ever. It keeps salaries down in all industries. These fucking Tarifvertraege have kept salaries from growing, too. The people would have pushed a long time ago but the truth is masked well enough. Those who don't believe the shit, earn more. It is sad and the change and progress happens elsewhere. Enjoy one or two decades of German companies looking like they still matter. N…

These numbers are far off reality. 80k€+ isn't a high salary for job in a Tarifunternehmen if you stay with it for 5+ years. Many of my colleagues cracked 100k€ this year without being AT and having crazy high position ratings.

Let me guess: They are working in one of the IGM-connected companies?

Re: We asked 15k European devs about jobs, salaries, and AI [pdf]

#34

Post by iso1631 »

NoiseBert69 wrote: post #22
j7ake wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn’t matter honestly, 65k versus 80k after 42% tax on the extra 15k is about 800 euros a month. Not qualitatively different.

Reality is ~36-38% if you learn to spend money strategically so you can fill a proper tax return. I never paid 42% my entire engineer life.

OK that's an extra €20 a week, doesn't really change the point

Re: We asked 15k European devs about jobs, salaries, and AI [pdf]

#35

Post by [deleted] »

KellyCriterion wrote: post #32
NoiseBert69 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These numbers are far off reality. 80k€+ isn't a high salary for job in a Tarifunternehmen if you stay with it for 5+ years. Many of my colleagues cracked 100k€ this year without being AT and having crazy high position ratings.

Let me guess: They are working in one of the IGM-connected companies?

[deleted]

Re: We asked 15k European devs about jobs, salaries, and AI [pdf]

#36

Post by aaaalone »

simfoo wrote: post #25
rockyj wrote: post #3

Yeah, the numbers in Germany are not so rosy. If these numbers are true, we are looking at - - An "average" salary of around 65K / year - This after (an average of) 5-6 rounds of interviews - 6 months of "probation", with only 2 weeks of notice - And all after 4-6 years of degree/s and 4-5 years of experience (so around 10 years of investment) Then after taxation 65K annually means around 3500/month in pocket. Then w…

Whenever I read those reports I can't help but wonder who they are actually asking. I'm definitely in a bubble working in Munich and either for US subsidiaries or at least close to them (automotive, ai, robotics, aerospace and others) - but it's a pretty big bubble because it's easily thousands of engineers within one or two hops. And we all make north of 100k€! No-one with more than 5-10 years of experience would ac…

[dead]

Re: We asked 15k European devs about jobs, salaries, and AI [pdf]

#37

Post by deng »

rockyj wrote: post #3

Yeah, the numbers in Germany are not so rosy. If these numbers are true, we are looking at - - An "average" salary of around 65K / year - This after (an average of) 5-6 rounds of interviews - 6 months of "probation", with only 2 weeks of notice - And all after 4-6 years of degree/s and 4-5 years of experience (so around 10 years of investment) Then after taxation 65K annually means around 3500/month in pocket. Then w…

It's the median salary: 50% of people earn more than 62.4k. 10% earn more than 80k. It's still low compared to the US, but what isn't?

For this, you get proper health and unemployment insurance, usually 30 days of paid vacation, up to 6 weeks of sick leave with full salary, up to 10 days to take care of sick children with full salary, paternal leave, the right to work part-time if desired, and so on. I don't know where you get the "people can be let go anytime" have from, because Germany is pretty famous for its "Kündigungsschutz" and it's very hard to let people go because of performance issues alone, which is why things like stack ranking and performance improvement plans pretty much do not exist here.

I can understand if young people without kids do not care about these things and just want the money. However, once you get older, you'll see the advantages.

Re: We asked 15k European devs about jobs, salaries, and AI [pdf]

#38

Post by throw20251220 »

rockyj wrote: post #3

Yeah, the numbers in Germany are not so rosy. If these numbers are true, we are looking at - - An "average" salary of around 65K / year - This after (an average of) 5-6 rounds of interviews - 6 months of "probation", with only 2 weeks of notice - And all after 4-6 years of degree/s and 4-5 years of experience (so around 10 years of investment) Then after taxation 65K annually means around 3500/month in pocket. Then w…

> - 6 months of "probation", with only 2 weeks of notice

Talk to Arbeitsamt, hiring in Germany is a huge risk as soon as your company is 10+ people. By the way, the two weeks notice goes both ways. There’s a risk on both sides.

> - And all after 4-6 years of degree/s and 4-5 years of experience (so around 10 years of investment)

Everyone is a Doktor there so your investment is most likely worthless. You did your reps at the Uni, profs instilled into you that you’re crème de la crème, but can you do the job, or are you just good at following orders.

Re: We asked 15k European devs about jobs, salaries, and AI [pdf]

#39

Post by yodsanklai »

rockyj wrote: post #3

Yeah, the numbers in Germany are not so rosy. If these numbers are true, we are looking at - - An "average" salary of around 65K / year - This after (an average of) 5-6 rounds of interviews - 6 months of "probation", with only 2 weeks of notice - And all after 4-6 years of degree/s and 4-5 years of experience (so around 10 years of investment) Then after taxation 65K annually means around 3500/month in pocket. Then w…

It's a bit more complicated than this. First, averages hide a lot of variability, both in skillsets and salaries. You have SWEs earning very high income. Also there's the question of opportunities. Some of these SWEs/devs could have had better prospects in different fields, while others not. And there's also the question of whether you like what you do. For many people, programming is a passion.

Re: We asked 15k European devs about jobs, salaries, and AI [pdf]

#40

Post by KellyCriterion »

NoiseBert69 wrote: post #26
klooney wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you doing, for the non-Germans? I'm wondering how onerous your tax optimization strategy is.

There are many tools available in Germany that support you doing your tax filings. They have endless questionnaires in (tax law free) easy language that guide you through all the taxing niches. They not only respect all rules regarding the laws but also the latest jurisprudence. Like: If you have a lockable, separate office and work (almost) exclusively from home, you can basically deduct the entire room for tax purp…

....but wait until Finanzamt comes along and measures the size and checks with a controller if this room is really ONLY for work - if there is the slightest sign that this room maybe used for other things, your plan is gone.

Even an additional single sofa/couch can crush this plan.

And: If you say the room is worth 500€, you dont get back this 500€ with yearly tax declaration - you only get this amount deducted from total income, rising your after-tax income a little bit. In fact, with this solution you loose a room PLUS some money - rather rent out the room 1 week per AirBnB and pocket this in cash and you are fine.

Source: I was once hit by them with these rules.

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