Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted • Hacker News Board

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#31

Post by Jd » Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 7:59 PM UTC

kajecounterhack wrote: post #28

Uchikoma wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Thus, to be cheating in a class where 99% of the students are cheating is to be somewhat less culpable than to be among the students cheating when only 1% of the students are cheating." No.

I'm pretty sure I agree with you but comments like these could be more verbose. It's not helpful to simply disagree without explanation. One word responses are just dogmatic.

Thanks. I personally believe in right and wrong, but also in degrees of right and wrong. Doing the right thing in a situation where everyone else is doing the wrong thing is more difficult. Doing the right thing when everyone is doing the right thing is easy. Thus, you don't really know your values or the depth of your values until you are placed in a situation where it is difficult to carry them out.

Here, for "culpability" I mean simply that I believe that the power to actualize the values of each individual differs, and that those who are able to actualize their values even in very difficult situations is worth more and to be praised more than those who are unable to and go with the flow.

This is to say that simply saying you have certain values means nothing. You have to act on those values and, because acting on those values can be difficult, I have sympathy for those who fail to -- even as I praise those who do.

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#32

Post by badclient » Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 8:00 PM UTC

gizmo wrote: post #27

badclient wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jaywalking in Manhattan, on the other hand is not done and you better not do it within eyesight of a police officer. Seriously? I have stayed in Manhattan for couple years and done my share of jaywalking occasionally in clear sight of NYPD. May be I am just lucky but this just doesn't resonate with me.

I guess I'm wrong about that then. When I was there last everybody seemed to wait for the light to turn green. I'll edit the original post.

Most people don't jaywalk for safety reasons, not fear of being ticketed.

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#33

Post by kevinburke » Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 8:01 PM UTC

grandalf wrote: post #5

The worst part is that cheating indicates a strong cynicism about the course and the value of learning the material. I thought elite schools were able to recruit people with intellectual curiosity and character. Clearly the admissions formula is broken.

The quality of teaching and of the coursework is highly variable, even at an elite institution. A lot depends on the teacher's interest in the topic, their ability to teach, and the composition of the students taking the course (whether it's a required class for graduation, or an elective class).

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#34

Post by pagliara » Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 8:02 PM UTC

gizmo wrote: post #16

Most people here are saying that the students were clearly in the wrong. "Lack intellectual curiosity and character". "spoiled children". I don't agree at all. Aside from the formal rules, smart people pick up on which rules can be broken safely. In fact, knowing which rules in life you should break and which rules you should follow is probably a critical factor for success in life. Jaywalking is illegal in most (all…

"In fact, knowing which rules in life you should break and which rules you should follow is probably a critical factor for success in life."

I completely agree. Especially for entrepreneurs, it's a super important skill that is not easily learned but often creates incredible advantages and opportunities.

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#35

Post by rhizome » Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 8:02 PM UTC

arjunnarayan wrote: post #3

monjaro wrote: post #2

For being at an elite "best-of-the-best" school, these students sure sound like a bunch of spoiled children. The reasons for cheating seem to vary from "it was a hard course so I had to cheat" to "everyone does it" to "it's an open book test, so we should be allowed to cheat".

Have you not been paying attention to the entitlement and attitudes of the global financial elite in 2009-2010? This was precisely their response to the mismanagement of the banks: everybody was doing it, it was accepted, now bail us out and leave.

And many, many of those people, in the industry, regulatory, and political sides, learned that stuff at schools like Harvard.

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#36

Post by Locke1689 » Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 8:05 PM UTC

wisty wrote: post #15

Locke1689 wrote: post #4

How much "cheating" was actually done here? Was it simply that people's answers looked similar? On a take-home test with open book, open Internet, you'd expect that everyone would probably Google the same sources. I'm also suspicious of people who claim that sharing notes is in violation of some cheating rule. I posted the source code to most of my school projects on GitHub. If people want to crib off my code that's…

> I did the work, whether or not they want to is their problem. And the problem of the mediocre students who don't cheat, but get graded below the cheaters; and employers, who will tend to hire less honest and less capable graduates.

Well, maybe, but I was never one to care too much about grades. More often than not copying off me was a bad idea for most of the students because the professors knew that the level of work was too high for the cheater.

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#37

Post by cbhl » Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 8:08 PM UTC

Locke1689 wrote: post #4

How much "cheating" was actually done here? Was it simply that people's answers looked similar? On a take-home test with open book, open Internet, you'd expect that everyone would probably Google the same sources. I'm also suspicious of people who claim that sharing notes is in violation of some cheating rule. I posted the source code to most of my school projects on GitHub. If people want to crib off my code that's…

> I posted the source code to most of my school projects on GitHub. If people want to crib off my code that's not my problem -- I did the work, whether or not they want to is their problem.

This is not true at all post-secondary institutions. For example, the University of Waterloo's Policy 71 - Student Discipline[0] explicitly puts the burden on you to prevent others from cribbing your work:

"Students are responsible for demonstrating behaviour that is honest and ethical in their academic work. Such behaviour includes:

* Preventing their work from being used by others, e.g. not lending assignments to others, protecting access to computer files."

[0] https://uwaterloo.ca/secretariat/policies-procedures-guideli...

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#38

Post by Mizza » Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 8:10 PM UTC

I went to school in Boston and knew lots of people of Harvard and MIT, and the amount of cheating was absolutely staggering. The "Greek"/frat network contributes to this cheating culture greatly (some houses more than others, but they're all part of it.)

Personally, I think that some of these people are so used to being that #1 student that when they're surrounded by other #1'ers, they do whatever it takes to remain on top, or so their logic goes.

They're not the people who ever build cool things anyway though, so who cares.

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#39

Post by tlrobinson » Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 8:12 PM UTC

oob205 wrote: post #21

tlrobinson wrote: post #14

"Some students asked whether there was a fundamental contradiction between telling students to use online resources, but not to discuss the test with each other." No.

Um..yes. Study groups or websites are online resources. So is facebook. If a student posts the questions online and starts discussions with anonymous posters, or even reads relevant discussions posted online before the test, how is that different from discussing with one another. There are plenty of ways to have a test that explicitly prevents collaboration. This professor clearly did not try.

If the students couldn't figure out how to use online resources without collaborating with each other they don't belong at Harvard.

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#40

Post by trhtrsh » Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 8:14 PM UTC

oob205 wrote: post #21

tlrobinson wrote: post #14

"Some students asked whether there was a fundamental contradiction between telling students to use online resources, but not to discuss the test with each other." No.

Um..yes. Study groups or websites are online resources. So is facebook. If a student posts the questions online and starts discussions with anonymous posters, or even reads relevant discussions posted online before the test, how is that different from discussing with one another. There are plenty of ways to have a test that explicitly prevents collaboration. This professor clearly did not try.

This is a case of the changing times leading to miscommunication.

The implied intent of the rule is that READ-ONLY NON-INTERACTIVE Internet use was permitted. To today's students, the Internet is a READ-WRITE INTERACTIVE tool, unless explicitly stated otherwise.