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The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

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Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#31

Post by tluyben2 »

malbertife wrote: post #28
tluyben2 wrote: post #8

We just opened up in PT http://appsalad.com/appdesign/nieuw-appsalad-portugal-is-een... (Dutch) and we'll be opening a second office in Faro soon. Most devs want to stay in their country and we don't mind giving them that opportunity. I never understood why people would leave what they love though; be that India or Portugal or whatever; there is plenty to do and live for if you are resourceful and the Portugese I met…

"small things like the difference between the staff in Worten and Mediamarkt" I'm curious, what do you mean? Having bought from both stores (in Lisbon) I have noticed no difference. Edit: never mind, I just saw your answer to this comment's sibling.

Maybe they actually have a Worten company chef who knows what he is doing, or maybe you are just unaware who customer service should be. I don't know. The natives here (south of Spain) don't see that everyone is downright rude to you. Until you go to a scandinavian / north eu place and you see the difference. But it might just be the people here; there is a huge difference between the two.

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#32

Post by macuenca »

josemariaruiz wrote: post #18
petercooper wrote: post #9

And while this author notes Portuguese contacts headed to the UK and Germany, I've noticed the same but with several leaving the UK for the Bay Area (with zero going to the rest of the EU).

Yeap, UK people are heading for the Valley and for NY. Curious migratory movements, isn't it? My question is, where is the ultimate cause? what about USA people? Are they heading to China? :)

That is a (mis)perception most people have (myself included) regarding career development. Professionals follow the path of the higher salary.

For me, the path can be something like this: South America That being said, there's also people who give more value to quality of life. The place that work for in Spain have several people from The US, Sweden and UK, even though they could be making more money back in their countries.

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#33

Post by josemariaruiz »

tluyben2 wrote: post #23
danmaz74 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"this crazy way people treat clients in the south must come to a complete halt": Care to specify you mean here?

Well if you live in southern EU you have, as an example, Worten and Mediamarkt => they both do electronic 'stuff', games, tvs, washers, etc. They are quite comparable, except Worten is Portugese and Mediamarkt is German. And that difference is a huge gap. The staff is Worten, in all branches I have been, and, when I had enough, my friends have been, is downright shit. We are talking girls with braces talking to their…

Everybody hates Endesa. In Spain is highly probable that when someone takes your call to a company he/she will be in South America ;)

And about Spanish companies and how they treat their customers, I'm with you. This is ingrained in many mediterranean countries: no ones got rich doing hard work or through a strong work ethic. You can only get rich stealing, abusing and lying. The rate of people who evades taxes is so high that in countries like Greece it's seen as normal. In fact in Greece you are a malakas («stupid/loser» yet the literal translation is «wanker») if you paid all your taxes.

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#34

Post by josemariaruiz »

justincormack wrote: post #30
tluyben2 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well if you live in southern EU you have, as an example, Worten and Mediamarkt => they both do electronic 'stuff', games, tvs, washers, etc. They are quite comparable, except Worten is Portugese and Mediamarkt is German. And that difference is a huge gap. The staff is Worten, in all branches I have been, and, when I had enough, my friends have been, is downright shit. We are talking girls with braces talking to their…

Service culture can change relatively fast with the right catalysts, which include better management and getting people more involved. The UK used to have terrible service (Fawlty Towers was based on real life), but has got much better. Immigration helped a lot though... Southern Europe is going to have to change a lot, fast. It is a huge opportunity if done right, but people dont even understand whats going on fully…

The waiter of Fawlty Towers was Spanish :)

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#35

Post by g123g »

I think one of the solutions that these countries can work is to promote high skill immigration to their countries. Something similar to what Australia and Canada are doing. Give the potential immigrants a chance to become full EU nationals in 4-5 years. I am pretty sure lot of skilled ppl from developing nations will be ready to move for that to these countries which offer a great quality of life. It might also help them overcome the problems of aging population in these countries as well. But the only caveat is that immigration process is tightly controlled to allow the most suitable applicants only.

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#36

Post by justincormack »

tluyben2 wrote: post #29
yeureka wrote: post #13

Not surprising. I left Portugal in 2003 to work in the games industry. There were still plenty of jobs in Lisbon then and salaries were not so bad. At the time I thought I would be away for a couple of years "just to get some experience". I would love to go back to be closer to my family and old friends, to enjoy the weather the beaches and nice food, but as another expat told me, our jobs just do not exist in Lisbon…

And how are you going to help that? Or you don't care? The asinine tax system is more or less the same as I'm used to in NL/DE. Taxes are not for your pleasure. Sure it could be easier, but it's not easier in most civilized places. I'm not Portugese, but I would do my best for my country and not leave like you have no other choice.

I think you will find that the tax system (and permits etc) are worse. Tax rates are higher in de/nl but the system is somewhat simpler. Spain, just to pick a random example, just removed a six month process to get a permit to open a retail location. And it is not like you can apply online or anything. I am in the UK where most stuff is even easier (was looking at setting up a company in different European countries, which you can do in the UK for £4.99, but is much more complex elsewhere, and requires a lot of capital).

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#37

Post by yeureka »

tluyben2 wrote: post #29
yeureka wrote: post #13

Not surprising. I left Portugal in 2003 to work in the games industry. There were still plenty of jobs in Lisbon then and salaries were not so bad. At the time I thought I would be away for a couple of years "just to get some experience". I would love to go back to be closer to my family and old friends, to enjoy the weather the beaches and nice food, but as another expat told me, our jobs just do not exist in Lisbon…

And how are you going to help that? Or you don't care? The asinine tax system is more or less the same as I'm used to in NL/DE. Taxes are not for your pleasure. Sure it could be easier, but it's not easier in most civilized places. I'm not Portugese, but I would do my best for my country and not leave like you have no other choice.

I care. If I didn't I wouldn't post here.

But there is so much a single person can do.

And I am very involved with portuguese tech companies at the moment.

I just can't afford to live in Portugal any more.

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#38

Post by megablast »

I have seen this in the UK. When I first moved to the UK, about 8 years ago, their were loads of Aussies around, lots of people coming into work anywhere in the UK. The Aussie dollar was about $3=£1.

Last year I came back to the UK, the dollar is $1.5=£1, there are hardly any aussies around, and lots of people are trying to get work in Australia.

This is party because of the Aussie dollar being so strong, and Australia withstanding the GFC thanks to China and the Banks.

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#39

Post by tluyben2 »

miguelpais wrote: post #27

I'm one of those about to graduate students from a technical university in Lisbon, and for me, there is no doubt anymore, I'll start to work outside of Portugal. When you look at it from one side, South European countries have everything: they have the food, the weather, good universities, kind and welcoming people (not to say that other countries don't), talent. They have the potential to be the best countries to li…

Change comes from the people of the country, not the people who run away. You should fight for change, not take the way of least resistance. Look beyond your personal gains and to the remaking of a whole country. If all brains leave, your country will be dead soon. And yes, of course you don't work for big consultancy companies :) That I have notices a lot; people in Portugal, especially students, seem to be overly occupied with career and such and want to go to 'the big companies'. They are not fun; Logica, Cap gemini or even Outsystems (who are 'small' but SHOULD be PT pride!); these are stable companies but they have a lot of experience how to manipulate and exploit people. The cultural thing (apparently?) that all students want to have for-life jobs (never occurred to me during or after university) and careers is a problem, as this won't happen in the north either. You'll get a contract 'for life' here because it doesn't really matter for the employer to give you that or temporary; you are protected mostly, so it's easier to just give you an eternal contract and use the court to force you out if need be.

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#40

Post by megablast »

petercooper wrote: post #9

And while this author notes Portuguese contacts headed to the UK and Germany, I've noticed the same but with several leaving the UK for the Bay Area (with zero going to the rest of the EU).

This may have a lot to do with getting funding. London has just started to become interested in funding startups, and EIS and the new SEIS are helping, but it is nothing compared to the US. Even the smallest city in the US has more funding opportunities than London. It takes a while for people to change their habits.
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