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ReiserFS and the Art and Artist Problem

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Re: ReiserFS and the Art and Artist Problem

#31

Post by LoganDark »

kikokikokiko wrote: post #7
baggy_trough wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A jerk is one thing; a murderer is something else.

If a murderer creates a file system/energy source/mouse trap that is effectively better than all of the alternatives, and generates value to the world, what he did in his personal life is effectively moot. There is no ethics problem involved in choosing the best solution to a problem, when that solution exists.

> There is no ethics problem involved in choosing the best solution to a problem, when that solution exists.

I constantly see people insisting there is, though. Lots of people boycott software just based on the surrounding context.

Re: ReiserFS and the Art and Artist Problem

#33

Post by pixl97 »

ensignavenger wrote: post #15
kikokikokiko wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a murderer creates a file system/energy source/mouse trap that is effectively better than all of the alternatives, and generates value to the world, what he did in his personal life is effectively moot. There is no ethics problem involved in choosing the best solution to a problem, when that solution exists.

If financially supporting said murderer allows them to continue to possibly murder more, then I would say there is a moral dilemma. Less so when the murderer is in jail and unlikely to ever really benefit from your using said solution.

I mean if they are a murderer then would not the legal system put them in jail? Also if they serve their sentence are they not adjudicated?

Re: ReiserFS and the Art and Artist Problem

#35

Post by Blackthorn »

adamgordonbell wrote: post #3

Hey, I made this. It uses OpenAI voices for Hans and others, which some found too robotic. The topic on my mind around this was: in the large, like MJ or Woody Allen, it's hard to make a call on the art vs. artist. But in the small, it's much easier because people aren't divided into domains. It's all mixed together. And if you can't work with people, if you can't be a team player you limit your abilities. ReiserFS4…

> The topic on my mind around this was: in the large, like MJ or Woody Allen, it's hard to make a call on the art vs. artist

Why do people think this is a dichotomy, or a call to be made in the first place? Instead of artist being an inseparable part of the art itself?

Chuck Tingle put it pretty well:

> strange when buds talk on 'separate the art from the artist'. a painting is not just a square that ends at canvas edge. it is history and intention. if you build wall between them you are numbing yourself and only experiencing half the art. the artist IS THE ART, at least to me

> separating artist from art is like walking out of a play during intermission youre missing half the show bud, for better or worse. gotta accept theres a whole second half and grapple with that because its all one big performance

Re: ReiserFS and the Art and Artist Problem

#36

Post by Aurornis »

donatj wrote: post #5

Some part of me always assumes people are innocent. I think I just see too much of myself in others and when they commit some act I never would it seems genuinely outside reality. I remember vividly being a very tech-involved twenty year old, extremely excited about Reiser4 when this all came to light and thinking "There's no way he did it! They don't even have a body, they don't even know she is dead" right up until…

> I remember vividly being a very tech-involved twenty year old, extremely excited about Reiser4 when this all came to light and thinking "There's no way he did it!

Becoming involved with a person and/or their project has a way of clouding judgment. ReiserFS blurred the lines between person and technology, so getting excited about the file system in a way meant you were backing the person, too.

None of us likes to imagine ourselves supporting a murderer, criminal, or other bad person. So when the accusations come out, the first instinct is to deny them. Admitting they have any truth would be equivalent to admitting that we supported a bad person, but denying them allows us to remain consistent.

This plays out frequently with celebrities, internet personalities, and politicians.

More recently (and without the crime, obviously) I'm reminded of the revelation that Andrew Huberman was not a great person in his personal or professional lives, and that his podcast content is full of misleading claims. The poor accuracy of his scientific content was well-known in the research community, but people didn't want to believe it because they liked Huberman and his personality. When the revelations about his personal and professional activities came out, people rushed to his defense and dismissal. Even today mentioning his name online will summon commenters who downplay the accusations or try to defend him. Listening to hundreds of hours of someone speaking charismatically has a way of charming people into denying any information that goes contrary to what they want to believe about that person.

Re: ReiserFS and the Art and Artist Problem

#37

Post by exe34 »

dent9876543 wrote: post #27
kikokikokiko wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a murderer creates a file system/energy source/mouse trap that is effectively better than all of the alternatives, and generates value to the world, what he did in his personal life is effectively moot. There is no ethics problem involved in choosing the best solution to a problem, when that solution exists.

Yet for many people, the very act of choosing results in a halo that goes beyond the acquisition itself. You may think you’re choosing a technology, and nothing further. But others may see your decision as a broader endorsement. Are they right to do so? Don’t know. Maybe not. But it is a real effect. The quandary is therefore ethical.

no the quandary is political. it's about how others see you.

Re: ReiserFS and the Art and Artist Problem

#38

Post by exe34 »

creshal wrote: post #16
kikokikokiko wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a murderer creates a file system/energy source/mouse trap that is effectively better than all of the alternatives, and generates value to the world, what he did in his personal life is effectively moot. There is no ethics problem involved in choosing the best solution to a problem, when that solution exists.

ReiserFS hasn't been the best solution in a long, long while. Even before the murder case it was often more trouble than it was worth.

I used it for a few months, lost a few files and moved on to ext3 at the time. I think his press notoriety came soon after that.

Re: ReiserFS and the Art and Artist Problem

#39

Post by Kye »

ensignavenger wrote: post #6
aristus wrote: post #2

You can like the work but hate the jerk. The real question comes when you decide whether to financially support a jerk's work.

So once a jerk artist is dead and can no longer benefit from their work, it becomes easier to consume their art without moral concern?

Sometimes the artist put too much of themselves in the work. For example: I tried reading Orson Scott Card's Iron Man comics and there was just too much homophobic nonsense throughout.

Re: ReiserFS and the Art and Artist Problem

#40

Post by karmakaze »

donatj wrote: post #5

Some part of me always assumes people are innocent. I think I just see too much of myself in others and when they commit some act I never would it seems genuinely outside reality. I remember vividly being a very tech-involved twenty year old, extremely excited about Reiser4 when this all came to light and thinking "There's no way he did it! They don't even have a body, they don't even know she is dead" right up until…

It seems there were cracks earlier in the software story:

> Linus: As long as you call them ‘plugins’…I (and I suspect a lot of other people) are totally uninterested…

> Uninterested, because they’re worried about the complexity, the stability, the long-term viability of Reiser4. They’re worried about his inability to collaborate, to compromise. They’re seeing a man who’s so focused on his own vision that he’s blind to the practical realities of working within a community, of releasing and maintain code at the scale of heavily used operating system kernel.

> Alan-Cox: “It doesn’t matter if reiser4 causes crashes. It matters that people can fix them…and the code is maintainable.”

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