Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#31

Post by hkarthik » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 3:32 PM UTC

jt2190 wrote: post #25

hkarthik wrote: post #23

A significant issue is that nobody trains employees while compensating them fairly based on their aptitude. So the only option is for employees to bounce around to get new skills and better wages. Employers hate this and constantly complain about "employee loyalty", not recognizing that job hopping is the only real defense that an employee has to be fairly compensated. Here is a fictional account that illustrates the…

You had me with you until you used the phrase "foreign workers." It's not their foreignness that makes them cheaper, it's that (in the U.S. at least) they're not able to easily change jobs and demand fair market wages, because their visa ties them to one employer.

The foreignness makes them cheaper in that it makes it easier for companies to justify paying them less and forcing their loyalty through the visa regulations. It has nothing to do with their qualifications which are often excellent.

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#32

Post by hkarthik » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 3:35 PM UTC

excuse-me wrote: post #28

hkarthik wrote: post #23

A significant issue is that nobody trains employees while compensating them fairly based on their aptitude. So the only option is for employees to bounce around to get new skills and better wages. Employers hate this and constantly complain about "employee loyalty", not recognizing that job hopping is the only real defense that an employee has to be fairly compensated. Here is a fictional account that illustrates the…

That's why Company B would never hire a C++ programmer and train them. Instead they would hire people who knew python (and insist of Python2.7rc2 b34 patch level 42 experience) AND pay less and rely on getting people that were either rejected from A or didn't find A. They would then decide the problem was python, fire all the programmers and try again with magic-silver-bullet technology of the day

yeah, I neglected to mention the toxic company F which does all of what you're saying.

Except after they fire all the programmers, they outsource all of their product development overseas.

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#33

Post by rprospero » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 3:49 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #29

I learned that the cat you let out of the bag is the same animal as the pig in a poke Nope, the cat is the cat o' nine tails, when it was taken out of its bag, it was because someone was about to be punished. No idea what he means by this comment.

You may have the etymology incorrect. The wiki lists two possible origins.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letting_the_cat_out_of_the_bag

Note that "letting the cat out of the bag" is used in cases where the truth comes out, not when someone is about to be punished. Consider the following two sentences.

After the jury returned a guilty verdict, the judge let the cat out of the bag that the defendant would serve fifteen years.

At the conference, the Microsoft employee let the cat out of the bag that that Windows 9 wouldn't run on x86.

I would argue that the second feels far more natural than the first. That's because it's about uncovering the truth, like the fact that the pig in your poke is really just a cat, and not about punishment, like pulling out the cat o' nine tails.

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#34

Post by krschultz » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 3:49 PM UTC

mratzloff wrote: post #12

ebiester wrote: post #9

The unstated counter-argument is that the employer will have to train inexperienced workers who will leave as soos as they become competent and experienced, or pay as much as you would for the experienced person in the first place. Myself, I'd rather train someone up in my process without them learning bad habits, even if that means they're pairing with me for 30 hours out of 40. That said, I'm an exception. Once upo…

That's because companies don't give them raises commensurate with their new experience. Each year for the first 2-3 years or so a new employee that's any good should be receiving large raises on top of their presumably modest starting salary. The problem is that companies think they can get away with keeping people anchored to those starting salaries. It doesn't work; morale suffers and they leave. Finding a young em…

That really is the crux of it. I got a 4.5% raise after my first year - not bad in this economy. I'll probably get similar this year.

My girlfriend switched jobs after 18 months and got a 100% raise.

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#35

Post by excuse-me » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 3:54 PM UTC

sparknlaunch wrote: post #27

> [Campbell talks about boom and bust cycles...] People always dismissed it, when I told them - if only I was born x years earlier I would have graduated at the start of the boom cycle. I would have landed a high paying role out of college/Uni and earned enough cash by the end of the cycle to see me through the bust years. With the work experience I would have a better chance competing against new grads. Considering…

That's also the reason why the job-hop to get a raise is so common.

Pay rises are multipliers on your current salary - which is based on when in the boom/bust cycle you got hired. If you were hired in a bust you can get the maximum raise every year but at the end you will still be getting less than someone hired in a boom.

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#36

Post by techx2501 » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 4:08 PM UTC

TallGuyShort wrote: post #4

I landed a great programming job with no experience and no degree because I could walk in there and talk about what I had taught myself and done on my own time. I know this doesn't transfer to every situation in every industry, but I think much of the problem stems from people who haven't put in much effort to make themselves marketable and to educate themselves. If I saw that, I would make the assumption that the co…

It seems that getting a programming job that way only works if you know someone at the company, or the company is small. Unfortunately, in my experience with both sides of the process, you won't even be considered for a job at a big tech company without the right degree--your application doesn't make it through their first filter.

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#37

Post by jt2190 » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 4:14 PM UTC

hkarthik wrote: post #31

jt2190 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You had me with you until you used the phrase "foreign workers." It's not their foreignness that makes them cheaper, it's that (in the U.S. at least) they're not able to easily change jobs and demand fair market wages, because their visa ties them to one employer.

The foreignness makes them cheaper in that it makes it easier for companies to justify paying them less and forcing their loyalty through the visa regulations. It has nothing to do with their qualifications which are often excellent.

Maybe it's me, but the suggestion that someone is getting short changed because they're different, and that it's easier to justify short changing someone because they're different, implies that the problem is their difference, not the short-changing.

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#38

Post by gutnor » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 4:17 PM UTC

tokenizer wrote: post #3

I think this all goes back to the fact that wages are stagnant for most of the world, and companies don't foster employees anymore. You need to cultivate experience in workers sometimes, especially if you have a complex system in place. Employees have no loyalty anymore, because of the cutting of benefits and wages. Employers have no loyal employees anymore, which means they require 3 to 5 years experience to give th…

It is not really cutting the benefits and wages that affect loyalty. Seeing my parent generation, they all understood that there were good and bad time in a company and that sometimes you needed to work for the greater good (of the company). The major difference, they had their job for life.

Now you are a despised resource. If you are not in sales, you are a "cost center". A previous boss of mine, during a company meeting QA summarized it like that: "Q: Are you thinking about outsourcing our project X dev team ? A: There is no immediate plan, however we are a development company, and we are continuously investigating outsourcing opportunities to stay competitive." That is something that the new generation know very well: you current job is only training for the next one.

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#39

Post by greyboy » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 4:23 PM UTC

blindhippo wrote: post #8

fiatmoney wrote: post #2

Shorter version: If you want experienced, wildly competent workers, you'll have to pay for them. If you're not willing to pay for the experienced workers, you'll have to train inexperienced workers. Also, the requirements you're listing for the job is probably ridiculous, and your screening process is probably broken.

Soon as I graduated I encountered the experience wall - it was ridiculous. "junior" level positions required 2-3 years experience and paid less then working at Walmart. Now that I have over 5 years experience in my field, I'm rolling in offers and have my pick. I've had managers complain about lack of loyalty in employees. I typically fired back suggesting that if you take new graduates out of school and actually inv…

Agreed. I'm one of the most loyal employees you'll ever find ... as long as I'm treated fairly. In exchange for good work all they need to provide is ample benefits, flexible schedule, satisfactory compensation, work with challenging/motivating problems - or some healthy mix of those.

Once the balance shifts to (my personal feeling of) inequality, I have no problem (or choice?) but to move on. Gone are they days of "lifers" with company provided pensions that could possibly make that decision (to move) harder (a la IBM full term careers).

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#40

Post by kamaal » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 4:29 PM UTC

hkarthik wrote: post #32

excuse-me wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why Company B would never hire a C++ programmer and train them. Instead they would hire people who knew python (and insist of Python2.7rc2 b34 patch level 42 experience) AND pay less and rely on getting people that were either rejected from A or didn't find A. They would then decide the problem was python, fire all the programmers and try again with magic-silver-bullet technology of the day

yeah, I neglected to mention the toxic company F which does all of what you're saying. Except after they fire all the programmers, they outsource all of their product development overseas.

Money is not the only motive for outsourcing things. Its one of the many reasons.

I am from Bangalore, India. I also worked at a major Indian IT firm for more than 5 years. I can tell you many more parameters apart from money matter regarding outsourcing. I see this with even more clarity as I work for a product company that outsources work.

Well executed outsourcing projects make life very easy for clients, that starts with cost savings and ends up going to many levels. I've seen my share of good and bad cases of outsourcing. And I can tell you that in many cases there are healthy relationships between clients and outsourcing firms lead to some amazing benefits for each other.

I've known a lot projects that are running for years without any complaints or interventions from clients. They are big massive projects, yet extremely well executed. When you look at it in its entirety the clients save a lot of money and other precious energy which they can focus on solving other problems. Its not just direct billing. But the clients save much on management, HR, infrastructure, IT and nearly every thing required to hire people and run the company.

I know there is a lot of negative impression about outsourcing in the US. And its pretty common for people to highlight failed cases or when some outsourced project went wrong.

You will be surprised if you actually come here, at ground zero and see those numbers are actually scanty and most of the outsourced projects actually run pretty well.