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Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

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Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#31

Post by mtgx »

I think the real issue with this is that it stops manufacturers from bundling Windows RT with Android. Take Asus for example. They've just made their "big" announcement which everyone thought it would be a dual-booting Windows RT/Android machine, and it turns out it's just Windows with the Bluestacks program that can make it run Android apps inside Windows.

I find that pretty silly, and I don't see a real reason why they didn't just make the machine dual-boot both Windows and Android. If users want Android apps inside Windows, they can download Bluestacks themselves. So the only explanation is that Microsoft is coercing manufacturers into not allowing Android or other OS's alongside Windows.

If they are doing this now, and more Linux vendors start asking for Microsoft's "permission" to boot their OS on the Windows machines with UEFI, what's to stop Microsoft from denying a UEFI license to someone who's starting to become a "real" competitor to Windows (like Android is, in some cases)? What if Ubuntu gets to 10% market share in the next 5 years, and keeps growing? Will they keep giving Canonical the UEFI license? What's guaranteeing that they will, if they are already banning Android from the Windows RT machines?

Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#32

Post by mtgx »

exDM69 wrote: post #6

I assume Microsoft will want to have secure booting devices that ship with Windows, because Hollywood and other content producers require a secure OS so their DRM is safer. If they would allow non-secure boot, it might be difficult or impossible to get video and music content licensed from the major producers on the platform.

The real problem with that is that if Metro is successful on Windows 8, that also means that people will have to use only the Windows 8 store in the future, which also means that you won't be able to install apps from websites anymore, just from Microsoft's store. Then, they can just delete whatever apps they don't like or the apps RIAA and MPAA doesn't like.

Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#33

Post by tjoff »

nathan_long wrote: post #17
tjoff wrote: post #9

We've yet to see any mobile device where running another OS than the bundled one have been anything but a nightmare. This is done everywhere, android manufacturers constantly try to lock users in their own android shell, not to mention apple. These devices are not multipurpose devices, they are built for a specific purpose and tailormade for that and nothing else. It is not in any sense equivalent to desktop/laptop-c…

I strongly disagree. >> "These devices are not multipurpose devices". These devices have chips which can run any algorithm you write. They are not hammers, or even calculators. They are computers. They also have GPS, motion sensors, cameras, and microphones. They are multipurpose enough to make phone calls, play games, run maps, and even power satellites: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/main/spheres_smart..…

No, they are not computers any more than my clock is a computer. Yes, deep within there is a multipurpose chip that performs the calculations but that is abstracted away. Just as your car isn't a computer, it has multiple computers that aid it but it is not a computer and you have no real interface with the computer itself. Just as my clock, just as my phone, just as my fridge.

I appreciate the security value of secure boot, but ONLY as far as its purpose is to serve the customer. Which means the customer must be able to disable it.

If you can disable it it doesn't serve the customer, because the customer is incompetent and would gladly disable it in exchange for a picture of a cat.

You don't buy a computer, you buy an android/windows/iOS device. Just as you don't buy a computer when you buy an Xbox360 or an PS3 - and because you haven't bought a computer you shouldn't really have any problems with the manufacturer locking you in. Oh, but you wanted a computer? Then buy a computer! Sigh.

I never said I agreed with Microsoft, but it is a rational decision (a rational decision that Apple and pretty much all Android and WP manufacturers have made) that fits well withing the concept of all popular mobile OS's, if you don't buy into that then I guess your only bet is maemo/meego, because you surely don't run WP/android/iOS, right?

Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#34

Post by rbanffy »

polshaw wrote: post #3

Along with their apparent restriction of the 'desktop' on arm, this is the reason I lost interest in windows8 on arm. So far a linux + android solution (like ubuntu have demonstrated) seems more powerful and very will also have more apps to start (way to go throw away windows' advantage #1). It seems quite short-sighted, too, as I see ARM as being a viable laptop platform in the life of windows 8, but MS are restrict…

Windows already had no advantage - all programs would need to be rebuilt for the new platform. That's what killed Windows NT on everything non-x86.

The only apps that will be cross-platform will be WinRT/Metro based ones.

Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#35

Post by rbanffy »

brudgers wrote: post #27
bni wrote: post #10

From the article: "Apple has long prevented dual booting to Linux" This is not true, I have Ubuntu on my MacBook Pro.

The article is about ARM devices, not x86.

Apple makes their own devices. Microsoft is forcing OEMs who would allow dual booting to restrict user choice because they'd rather not compete.

Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#36

Post by tjoff »

keeperofdakeys wrote: post #30
danmaz74 wrote: post #2

The article is much more complex than what it would look like from the title, but it is a good idea to keep the pressure on on Microsoft so that they might "soften their position", as is stated in the article.

Originally Windows 8 x86 certification didn't mandate that a disable option must exist. They changed this because of pressure. They won't soften their position just like that, they have a policy and agenda and they will follow it. Just the fact that they will have a SecureBoot stronghold means they can easily tighten their position. The pain doesn't come from the fences being built, it's from taking them away. Also,…

The windows 8 x86 certification shouldn't need to mandate that a disable option must exist. It was added because people wouldn't trust manufacturers to support anything but Windows.

Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#37

Post by nitrogen »

tjoff wrote: post #33
nathan_long wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly disagree. >> "These devices are not multipurpose devices". These devices have chips which can run any algorithm you write. They are not hammers, or even calculators. They are computers. They also have GPS, motion sensors, cameras, and microphones. They are multipurpose enough to make phone calls, play games, run maps, and even power satellites: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/main/spheres_smart..…

No, they are not computers any more than my clock is a computer. Yes, deep within there is a multipurpose chip that performs the calculations but that is abstracted away. Just as your car isn't a computer, it has multiple computers that aid it but it is not a computer and you have no real interface with the computer itself. Just as my clock, just as my phone, just as my fridge. I appreciate the security value of secu…

People who argue that phones are computers are arguing the nature of a thing is its identity. It seems you are arguing that the intent of a thing is its identity.

Using your argument, if I wrap my desktop PC in a cardboard box with holes for air inlet, air exhaust, and the power cable, and call it a heater, it's no longer a computer, despite having all the bits inside that a computer would have.

I'd much rather decide for myself what something "is", based on what it's actually made of, rather than what the manufacturer wants it to be.

Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#38

Post by air »

brudgers wrote: post #26

[edit] The article is from January[/edit] Topic discussed previously on Hacker News: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3458679 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3567448 Upshot: If you don't care that your hardware is certified, you don't have to implement secure boot in the way Microsoft requires for certification. You will probably have a few technical challenges, however.

"Upshot: If you don't care that your hardware is certified, you don't have to implement secure boot in the way Microsoft requires for certification."

No, upshot is that for ARM you can't get Windows at all (certified or not) if you allow other operating systems to boot.

Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#39

Post by beedogs »

ivanbernat wrote: post #8

I've said this before and I'll say it again: Microsoft isn't doing this to ban Ubuntu / Linux in general, but to prevent Android from spreading. With ICS being a great OS, many (tech) folks would simply dual-boot ICS on their WinRT devices.

But those people will just figure out a way to do that anyway.

I don't see the point in these decisions to expend likely a lot of time, effort, and money eliminating edge cases.

Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#40

Post by tjoff »

nitrogen wrote: post #37
tjoff wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they are not computers any more than my clock is a computer. Yes, deep within there is a multipurpose chip that performs the calculations but that is abstracted away. Just as your car isn't a computer, it has multiple computers that aid it but it is not a computer and you have no real interface with the computer itself. Just as my clock, just as my phone, just as my fridge. I appreciate the security value of secu…

People who argue that phones are computers are arguing the nature of a thing is its identity. It seems you are arguing that the intent of a thing is its identity. Using your argument, if I wrap my desktop PC in a cardboard box with holes for air inlet, air exhaust, and the power cable, and call it a heater, it's no longer a computer, despite having all the bits inside that a computer would have. I'd much rather decid…

Well, the nature of an android phone isn't a computer, it is an android device. To claim that the PS3 is a Cell-powered computer is about as helpful as claiming that my router is a arm-powered computer, it might be true but that doesn't mean that I can run linux on my router - yet I can run linux on an arm-powered computer.

I'm not arguing that the intent of a thing is its identity - the manufacturers are, and if you buy into that then, well, you buy into that.

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