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For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

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Re: For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

#31

Post by simpletone »

OnACoffeeBreak wrote: post #15
Arc_Orion wrote: post #6

This makes sense. I have fairly good L2 German production, but I go from conversant to barely coherent when fatigued. My L1 English production diminishes, but not nearly as much. Likewise, my friends who speak English as an L2, even those who have spoken it with a strong command for over a decade, will struggle when very tired. Though we usually speak in English (her English is way better than my German), I've had a…

Regarding the follow-up... I grew up speaking only Russian. I moved to the US when I was 15. I had 7 years of deliberate English practice prior to the move and became fluid in it within a year of moving. That was about 30 years ago. Because I moved alone, and didn't seek out Russian speakers for this 30 year duration, I only occasionally spoke Russian. The result is that now my Russian feels like a second language. W…

> It doesn't feel like my Russian comprehension diminished, but speaking it is a struggle.

I didn't know you could 'lose' a native language that you grew up with til near adulthood. Maybe speaking has more to do with muscle memory and hence easier to lose than a somewhat passive skill like listening and comprehension. Makes me wonder how language is stored and processed in the brain. Are there two complete separate regions for speaking and listening? That feels a bit inefficient.

Re: For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

#32

Post by StefanBatory »

aragonite wrote: post #17

In my observation of non-native speakers working & living in the US (a group to which I belong), there's also something special about number-words. If you are a non-native speaker, even if you boast near-perfect English pronunciation and fluency, and are accustomed to using English in all aspects of your life, not just for communication but for e.g. personal note-taking, and even if you haven't spoken/written your na…

I have been learning English for close to 18 years by now.

I still can't count in English.

Re: For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

#33

Post by credit_guy »

aragonite wrote: post #17

In my observation of non-native speakers working & living in the US (a group to which I belong), there's also something special about number-words. If you are a non-native speaker, even if you boast near-perfect English pronunciation and fluency, and are accustomed to using English in all aspects of your life, not just for communication but for e.g. personal note-taking, and even if you haven't spoken/written your na…

Interesting. There's something about this.

Two days ago I was jump roping. Sometimes I was (mentally) counting in English, sometimes in my native language. I'm not sure which one I did more often, but when I paid attention, I noticed that I made fewer mistakes when counting in my native language. An explanation would be that my brain can do that more effortlessly. Despite the fact that I lived in the US for longer than I lived in my native country.

Re: For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

#34

Post by dotnet00 »

pcthrowaway wrote: post #25
aragonite wrote: post #17

In my observation of non-native speakers working & living in the US (a group to which I belong), there's also something special about number-words. If you are a non-native speaker, even if you boast near-perfect English pronunciation and fluency, and are accustomed to using English in all aspects of your life, not just for communication but for e.g. personal note-taking, and even if you haven't spoken/written your na…

(as a native English speaker who has spent some time in India) I have such a hard time thinking of numbers in terms of Lakh and Crore, I find even if I can remember the number of decimal places represented by each one, I almost have to visualize the number and move the commas in my mind to be able to make sense of them.

Similarly the only knowledge I've pretty much entirely forgotten about Hindi is the way the digits are written. Even going years without reading or writing in Hindi, the muscle memory comes back pretty much immediately for everything except for the digits.

Technically Hindi would be my mother tongue, but I wonder how all that plays out in terms of having initially been raised with it, then having entirely forgotten it and replaced with native level English for a few years, and then having relearned Hindi from scratch. I tend to think in a mix of both languages, and have a tendency to mix words from other languages into my thoughts too if I'm exposed to them often, even if I can barely speak those languages.

Re: For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

#36

Post by OnACoffeeBreak »

david422 wrote: post #29
OnACoffeeBreak wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding the follow-up... I grew up speaking only Russian. I moved to the US when I was 15. I had 7 years of deliberate English practice prior to the move and became fluid in it within a year of moving. That was about 30 years ago. Because I moved alone, and didn't seek out Russian speakers for this 30 year duration, I only occasionally spoke Russian. The result is that now my Russian feels like a second language. W…

> became fluid in it became fluent in it I think you want this ^^ When I was in 6th grade I had a classmate move from Canada (speaking French) to the US, and after a couple of years speaking English he said that he started to lose his French speaking pretty quickly.

Touche... As I was typing that up, I knew I would screw up somehow trying to demonstrate proficiency. :-) Leaving as is.

Re: For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

#37

Post by mastazi »

aragonite wrote: post #17

In my observation of non-native speakers working & living in the US (a group to which I belong), there's also something special about number-words. If you are a non-native speaker, even if you boast near-perfect English pronunciation and fluency, and are accustomed to using English in all aspects of your life, not just for communication but for e.g. personal note-taking, and even if you haven't spoken/written your na…

I am a non-native speaker living in Australia, I have been here for 12 years now; my experience is that this eventually goes away. Until about 5 years ago I was experiencing the same as what you are describing but now it no longer happens. I suspect that the timing depends on one's age, for example I moved here in my 30's and my progress was much slower than my daughter who moved here very young. Another factor is the relationship between your native language and your acquired one, for example I have observed that people whose native tongue is an Indo-European language don't have as much of a hard time switching to English compared to people from other linguistic backgrounds.

Re: For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

#38

Post by pessimizer »

simonbarker87 wrote: post #18
a_c_s wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to be a curmudgeon but I get tired of all these claims about how well young children speak second languages. A young child saying "Vanilla ice cream please!" often sounds more like "Ganiwa ishe! cweam! pweese!". A typical 4-year-old speaking English substitutes many sounds for another because they developmentally aren't able to make the right sounds yet. Their intonation is also all over the place. If an adult…

Just a thought from someone who speaks English and a smattering of Spanish. If the child can correctly express the idea/intent they want and be understood then arguably they have learned that part of the language. Sure it might not sound how an adult would be likewise they probably don’t in their native language either right? I doubt anyone is saying that kids learn to speak the language perfectly but clearly there i…

The person you're responding to said that children are graded on a curve. Your response is that children should be graded on a curve. Fine, but only being understood by your mother when near an ice cream shop is not the goal for adults learning a second language.

Re: For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

#39

Post by kwhitefoot »

a_c_s wrote: post #12
brabel wrote: post #7

If you learn any language as an adult, chances are you're never going to become as fluent as a native speaker, no matter how long you live in a second language environment. I say that as someone who has done it myself, and seen a lot of friends and family going through the same process. Children are a different story. They can learn a language and start speaking just like native speakers, local accent and all, within…

Sorry to be a curmudgeon but I get tired of all these claims about how well young children speak second languages. A young child saying "Vanilla ice cream please!" often sounds more like "Ganiwa ishe! cweam! pweese!". A typical 4-year-old speaking English substitutes many sounds for another because they developmentally aren't able to make the right sounds yet. Their intonation is also all over the place. If an adult…

My children went to kindergarten (barnehage) in Norway when they were about three and a half and speaking English well. Well with a year they were indistinguishable from the native children.

Re: For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

#40

Post by vladvasiliu »

kelvie wrote: post #19
aragonite wrote: post #17

In my observation of non-native speakers working & living in the US (a group to which I belong), there's also something special about number-words. If you are a non-native speaker, even if you boast near-perfect English pronunciation and fluency, and are accustomed to using English in all aspects of your life, not just for communication but for e.g. personal note-taking, and even if you haven't spoken/written your na…

Does it have to do with syllables? I use English mostly (and am certainly a native English speaker), but use my mother tongue to memorize numbers, as mine (Cantonese) has single syllable numbers. I think I can keep 5-7 numbers in short-term memory in english, whereas I think it's closer to 10 or 12 in Cantonese.

I don't think so. Neither my native nor adopted tongues are English. My native tongue actually has more syllables than the adopted one, for some lowish numbers. Yet, I still count in my native tongue, e.g., when counting the reps while lifting weights.

I'd say I speak better my adopted tongue than my native one. People from my country say I speak with an accent, while locals are surprised to learn I'm a foreigner, since I speak with no accent. When I think about things, I also use my adopted language (I went to school here, so it's easier, since I've learned the concepts in this language). Hell, I sometimes use English for my internal thinking. Just not when counting or adjacent tasks.

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