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Supporting IE Is Too Much Work

bartvanzon.com

31–40 of 176 posts

Re: Supporting IE Is Too Much Work

#31
You don't have comments on your blog, so I'll comment here:

IE testing is "hard" on a Mac because of the vm requirement, yes. However, that's not even my main issue. If Microsoft facilitated having VMs of each windows installation + browser version available for that OS to developers, it'd still be "hard" but at least they'd be helping. IE only runs on Windows, so if you want to test for Windows you have a bunch of sub-par options, or really expensive options, or..illegal options, pick your poison.

That's not even my biggest complaint about it, though. I have two main complaints.

First, the development tools available to Internet Explorer are absolute butt hole. Javascript is considered a second class citizen, and is nearly impossible to debug efficiently. The amount of "oh lets try this for shits and giggles" that is required, to see if it will fix a random IE issue is absolutely astounding. I typically find my solutions to IE issues by complete accident, and upon reflection say to myself "well..that's the most stupid thing I could have thought of - so no wonder that works." Not simple, stupid.

It feels like Microsoft deliberately takes the stance of making it HARD to develop software for Internet Explorer. I don't know if this is purposely their philosophy but maybe they're diluted enough to think it helps turn out higher quality applications. It doesn't, what it produces is a horrible user experience designed for the lowest-common denominator. And the worst part about it is that most of your end-users use IE. So, what it results in is crappy, old feeling, slow web applications and an influx of user complaints about things not working or taking too long (because the javascript engine is about as slow as the Ruby interpreter).

Second, the IE user base is so incredibly fragmented across versions. And it's not like the difference between chrome 13 and chrome 18 where some css3 features don't work, or websockets is slow, or whatever. The difference is that entire feature sets are missing, or work differently. In one version CSS box width includes margin and in the next, it doesn't. That's a pretty significant change; it completely ruins the entire flow of your site and you have to account for "special" cases of old browsers. Except, your "special cases" of old browsers are 30% of the internet population.

Supporting IE is a time sink, but not just because it's "hard" to set up Windows environments, but because Microsoft actively tries to make it hard for developers to code, test, and debug applications in Internet Explorer. Or doesn't make an effort to alleviate the pain; either way it's active effort in creating more suck, imo.

Disclaimers: I've been developing on Mac for 4 years and haven't used Internet Explorer as an every-day browser in 7 years. IE8 made some improvements to JS debugging (SOME) and is vastly better than 6 and 7. IE9 might be amazing, and IE10 might be the best browser in the world - I don't know. All I know is that debugging IE takes almost as long as building the application did in the first place. Until that problem is solved, IE will still suck and still get a lot of hate from the development community. Microsoft has a giant mountain to climb to get their reputation back to "neutral" in the web development community.

Re: Supporting IE Is Too Much Work

#32
post #14
post #3

I honestly think a lot of hacker types really do live in a bubble where they think it's still 2000, Microsoft is still the same evil company they were, Apple still can do no wrong, most people now use Macs "if they know what's good for them", RoR, node.js and Python are really the only valid technologies for back end development and so forth. Certainly plenty of folks out there using the aforementioned technologies a…

After the IE 6 pain no web developer will forgive microsoft for the time lost and pain. They test for IE only because lots of people use it or because their jobs require this, nobody likes IE, it always had bugs, was insecure and most important non standard. IE9 is closer to normal, but microsoft lost is trust, they had the chance to change something much earlier and they did nothing, they are only acting now because…

I think your history is a little skewed. When IE6 came out, it was an awesome browser for the time. It was light years better than anything else out there and yes, it embraced/extended HTML & CSS, but really, no other browser out there supported the specs either. They were the de facto standard so it wasn't even a problem.

The reason IE 6 is such a problem is Microsoft didn't do anything with IE for years after that while the world evolved. But I'm really not convinced the Web would be anywhere near what we see today if Netscape just kept pumping out increasingly bad browsers.

Re: Supporting IE Is Too Much Work

#33
post #11
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually much more work to test on a Mac when developing on a Windows machine since Apple is so protective of OS X that they don't allow it to run in a vm. Which is sad because I like to have all kinds of users but it's really really difficult to accommodate for all you guys browsing on a mac. Please hit me with hints to make life easier for myself if you have some...

If you can stomach it, there's Safari for Windows, Google Chrome should render the same across platforms, as should Firefox. The only thing you'd need a Mac for really is ensuring that your colors/contrast look good, and that fonts are readable (on account of the font hinting). The other option, of course, is to either buy a Mac, or build a Hackintosh.

Macs run Windows, Windows don't run OSX. This is why I develop on Mac; it's more versatile. (For web development)

Re: Supporting IE Is Too Much Work

#34
post #14
post #3

I honestly think a lot of hacker types really do live in a bubble where they think it's still 2000, Microsoft is still the same evil company they were, Apple still can do no wrong, most people now use Macs "if they know what's good for them", RoR, node.js and Python are really the only valid technologies for back end development and so forth. Certainly plenty of folks out there using the aforementioned technologies a…

After the IE 6 pain no web developer will forgive microsoft for the time lost and pain. They test for IE only because lots of people use it or because their jobs require this, nobody likes IE, it always had bugs, was insecure and most important non standard. IE9 is closer to normal, but microsoft lost is trust, they had the chance to change something much earlier and they did nothing, they are only acting now because…

Are we also not using firefox, for the awful later netscape 4.X releases?

Re: Supporting IE Is Too Much Work

#35
While I agree that supporting multiple browsers & devices is a PITA, we as an industry are still employing some mindnumbingly bad testing practices. There are a lot of solid testing products out there that ease the pain. Testing as a service has made cross-browser testing simple and cheap the way hosted services have for all sorts of other problems.

Obviously I have a real interest in this, given I'm a Selenium dev and I started one of these testing as a service companies, but that really was a result of wanting to ease the pain. I highly recommend checking out Sauce Labs for functional testing and Mogotest (my aforementioned company) for render-level testing. Both beat the crap out of running a bunch of VMs and manually testing (although falling back to the VM to fix something may make sense).

Re: Supporting IE Is Too Much Work

#36
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After the IE 6 pain no web developer will forgive microsoft for the time lost and pain. They test for IE only because lots of people use it or because their jobs require this, nobody likes IE, it always had bugs, was insecure and most important non standard. IE9 is closer to normal, but microsoft lost is trust, they had the chance to change something much earlier and they did nothing, they are only acting now because…

I think your history is a little skewed. When IE6 came out, it was an awesome browser for the time. It was light years better than anything else out there and yes, it embraced/extended HTML & CSS, but really, no other browser out there supported the specs either. They were the de facto standard so it wasn't even a problem. The reason IE 6 is such a problem is Microsoft didn't do anything with IE for years after that…

> I think your history is a little skewed. When IE6 came out, it was an awesome browser for the time. It was light years better than anything else out there

No, because it had been preceded/preempted by IE5/Mac, which had feature IE6 never got (such as full support for PNGs including gamma correction).

Re: Supporting IE Is Too Much Work

#38
post #30

Supporting IE can be too much work. The Microsoft Knowledge base acknowledges issues and then tells you that the solution is to change your IE options or upgrade your browser. As if that will help with my users. Sure the latest versions of IE are not as painful to support but if you check worldwide statistics you'll notice that old versions of IE are still sticking around.

so is your problem with ie or ignorant users?

Re: Supporting IE Is Too Much Work

#39
post #14
post #3

I honestly think a lot of hacker types really do live in a bubble where they think it's still 2000, Microsoft is still the same evil company they were, Apple still can do no wrong, most people now use Macs "if they know what's good for them", RoR, node.js and Python are really the only valid technologies for back end development and so forth. Certainly plenty of folks out there using the aforementioned technologies a…

After the IE 6 pain no web developer will forgive microsoft for the time lost and pain. They test for IE only because lots of people use it or because their jobs require this, nobody likes IE, it always had bugs, was insecure and most important non standard. IE9 is closer to normal, but microsoft lost is trust, they had the chance to change something much earlier and they did nothing, they are only acting now because…

IE6 came out in 2001, and at that time was the most standards-compliant and feature full of all the browsers on the market.

Re: Supporting IE Is Too Much Work

#40
post #3

I honestly think a lot of hacker types really do live in a bubble where they think it's still 2000, Microsoft is still the same evil company they were, Apple still can do no wrong, most people now use Macs "if they know what's good for them", RoR, node.js and Python are really the only valid technologies for back end development and so forth. Certainly plenty of folks out there using the aforementioned technologies a…

You're right, supporting IE9 isn't hard at all. IE8 is the problem. It's amazing how many people still use 8 -- and it's because of corporations who are slow to update software. The thing that annoys me is that Microsoft knows that businesses will use the current version of IE for many years to come, so they should be as cutting edge as possible, but they don't seem to care.
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