Supporting IE Is Too Much Work • Hacker News Board

Re: Supporting IE Is Too Much Work

#11

Post by omgmog » Thu, May 10, 2012, 11:56 AM UTC

doc4t wrote: post #4

omgmog wrote: post #2

It's not a lot of work to get a Windows/IE virtual environment up and running on a Mac, I use Virtualbox daily in combination with https://github.com/xdissent/ievms This shell script automatically downloads Windows virtual machine images from Microsoft, so that testing can be done in IE6/7/8/9. You don't even need to use separate machines, if you get a Windows 7 virtual machine set up you can use IE Tester to run IE5…

It's actually much more work to test on a Mac when developing on a Windows machine since Apple is so protective of OS X that they don't allow it to run in a vm. Which is sad because I like to have all kinds of users but it's really really difficult to accommodate for all you guys browsing on a mac. Please hit me with hints to make life easier for myself if you have some...

If you can stomach it, there's Safari for Windows, Google Chrome should render the same across platforms, as should Firefox.

The only thing you'd need a Mac for really is ensuring that your colors/contrast look good, and that fonts are readable (on account of the font hinting).

The other option, of course, is to either buy a Mac, or build a Hackintosh.

Re: Supporting IE Is Too Much Work

#12

Post by ry0ohki » Thu, May 10, 2012, 11:58 AM UTC

On that same note, if you don't have enough users to make IE worth supporting, you better have a product targeted at techies, because it does not have wide enough adoption yet among average people.

Re: Supporting IE Is Too Much Work

#13

Post by slig » Thu, May 10, 2012, 11:59 AM UTC

Did you guys forget what pain in the ass was a couple of years ago when IE was the most used browser everywhere?

Seriously, f. Microsoft. Just because finally they made a decent browser, doesn't mean that we should be that grateful. Their business was "make a shitty browser while we can", and now that they can't anymore "ok, sorry guys, here's very nice browser, btw, it won't work on our most used OS version, even though every other browser works".

Re: Supporting IE Is Too Much Work

#14

Post by givan » Thu, May 10, 2012, 11:59 AM UTC

axefrog wrote: post #3

I honestly think a lot of hacker types really do live in a bubble where they think it's still 2000, Microsoft is still the same evil company they were, Apple still can do no wrong, most people now use Macs "if they know what's good for them", RoR, node.js and Python are really the only valid technologies for back end development and so forth. Certainly plenty of folks out there using the aforementioned technologies a…

After the IE 6 pain no web developer will forgive microsoft for the time lost and pain.

They test for IE only because lots of people use it or because their jobs require this, nobody likes IE, it always had bugs, was insecure and most important non standard.

IE9 is closer to normal, but microsoft lost is trust, they had the chance to change something much earlier and they did nothing, they are only acting now because IE market share drops fast.

Re: Supporting IE Is Too Much Work

#15

Post by ivanbernat » Thu, May 10, 2012, 12:00 PM UTC

It's time we separate "full-stack" developers from "front-end" and "back-end" guys / gals. I've met some brilliant folks who write amazing Ruby but say they hate CSS or JS. Those are "back-end" guys. A "front-end" person will write CSS and HTML markup without a problem and will always make sure it's cross-browser compatible.

I've been coding front-end markup for 7 years now and I've never come across a IE-specific issue that took longer than 5 minutes to resolve, and 99% of the time my markup worked without any "hacks" at all. I'm talking about ~450 projects.

So my advice to all the startups calling "not supporting IE a feature" to outsource their markup to a company that will do it right. Remember, 90% of the world ISN'T using a Mac or a *nix flavor (I'm personally on a Mac) and many of them have no idea they can choose a different browser. Saying NO to someone just because they use a browser you don't like is like going around and bashing people based on their sexual preferences or religious beliefs. F-it, I'm still on Firefox, which is now far behind Chrome, will you ban me access in a year?

I keep telling startups, EDUCATE YOUR USERS. Put a banner and tell te to upgrade to IE9 or install Chrome Portable if they don't have the required permissions.

Re: Supporting IE Is Too Much Work

#16

Post by bartj3 » Thu, May 10, 2012, 12:00 PM UTC

givan wrote: post #7

In some cases, not supporting IE is like a filter, if you offer a web service that involves some web tech background from users then it will save you some support hours, people that don't understand basic stuff like what a browser is can be a pain for support or probably would never signup either.

True, and that is probably the case for Paydirt, but there's a difference between not supporting and actively blocking. Less than 2% of Paydirt's visitors use IE, so dropping support is a logical choice. Maybe even display a warning to IE users but don't block them.

Re: Supporting IE Is Too Much Work

#17

Post by doc4t » Thu, May 10, 2012, 12:01 PM UTC

chao- wrote: post #9

doc4t wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually much more work to test on a Mac when developing on a Windows machine since Apple is so protective of OS X that they don't allow it to run in a vm. Which is sad because I like to have all kinds of users but it's really really difficult to accommodate for all you guys browsing on a mac. Please hit me with hints to make life easier for myself if you have some...

Agreed. Not a single person in my company (a whole five people) owns a Mac, and it leaves us with no real options on the compatibility front. I prefer to develop in Linux, but I have a Windows partition since it's easy enough to do. But none of us have the pocket change lying around to buy a redundant machine just to check up on some demonstrably minimal segment of our users who use Safari on OS X. I'll put in the ti…

"Is it guaranteed to have true rendering/display parity with the OS X variant?" No. Last time I made a hackintosh running Safari on Win and Mac sometimes produced different outcomes in certain scenarios. Things might have changed though.

Re: Supporting IE Is Too Much Work

#18

Post by skrebbel » Thu, May 10, 2012, 12:04 PM UTC

I really subscribe to the attitude in this post. We're developers, we're supposed to make decent software. Our users won't care whether it's our fault or somebody else's if the software doesn't work. Just like you don't go blaming the database if your app becomes slow, you shouldn't blame the browser for rendering your page wrong, even if you're right!

Dammit, we're grown ups here. Make decent software! Test it! Automate the tests! Gracefully degrade! Yes, it's difficult, yes, it's costly! Get over it already!

Either make a fancy web app that works, or just make it highly non-fancy (HN, anyone?) to avoid all the headache. Or go somewhere halfway, as long as you're in control.

Re: Supporting IE Is Too Much Work

#19

Post by axefrog » Thu, May 10, 2012, 12:06 PM UTC

givan wrote: post #14

axefrog wrote: post #3

I honestly think a lot of hacker types really do live in a bubble where they think it's still 2000, Microsoft is still the same evil company they were, Apple still can do no wrong, most people now use Macs "if they know what's good for them", RoR, node.js and Python are really the only valid technologies for back end development and so forth. Certainly plenty of folks out there using the aforementioned technologies a…

After the IE 6 pain no web developer will forgive microsoft for the time lost and pain. They test for IE only because lots of people use it or because their jobs require this, nobody likes IE, it always had bugs, was insecure and most important non standard. IE9 is closer to normal, but microsoft lost is trust, they had the chance to change something much earlier and they did nothing, they are only acting now because…

Oh come on. Microsoft is not some horrible uncle who did you a great wrong and needs "forgiving". It's a company. The people who work there come and go, change departments and so forth. Yeah, sure, the people who worked in the highest positions back in the day employed some shitty tactics way back when, but times have changed, many of those people have moved on and much of the company's outlook has shifted significantly.

Holding an emotional grudge against a transient, evolving collective is stupid. I don't think everything they put out is great, I would love to see Ballmer step down and give someone else a turn (someone with some actual passion perhaps), but IE6 was a product of the mindset at the time, and times have changed. Get over it.

Re: Supporting IE Is Too Much Work

#20

Post by jan_g » Thu, May 10, 2012, 12:10 PM UTC

>Testing in IE is too much works… because they’re on a Mac.

To be honest, lots of companies use similar excuses. We won't make/support our product X on platform Z, because the user base is too small, we don't have the hardware, developers are all on platform Y, etc.

And generally speaking (no reference to paydirt example) it is in fact true, there are companies without a single windows machine. Unimaginable 5-10 years ago, but reality today.