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Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

presidentti.fi

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Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

#31

Post by gorbachev »

walkhour wrote: post #26
yks wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the small countries exist and if they cannot rely on big countries for protection against nuclear states, then the only way forward for them is to have their own nuclear weapons. Do you like that world better? Does it lower or heighten the risk of unleashing the “end of humanity”?

I don't accept that dichotomy despite I see value in the argument. Since the invention of nuclear bombs, how many countries without nuclear weapons have lost their sovereignty of those surrounding Russia? Btw if it's either NATO or nuclear bombs, why didn't Finland get nuclear bombs in the last 60 years?

See: Iran

Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

#32

Post by ajross »

walkhour wrote: post #10

This is an excellent deal for Finland, whose sovereignty is protected. Is it the same for the US? Do I want an attack against Finland to be considered an attack against the US? An attack against the US can unleash the end of humanity. I find very risky to leave this at the whims of some out of touch Russian dictator.

> Do I want an attack against Finland to be considered an attack against the US?

NATO is about deterrence, not really defense per se. NATO membership makes wars with Russia less likely, and provably so. So your answer is yes: the only way the modern global economy works is if all the players are guaranteed they won't get crushed and pillaged by rogue neighbors. A continuous land war in Europe is absolutely not safer for the USA than a decades-long cold war.

The "whims of some out of touch Russian dictator" are going to be dangerous no matter what we do. We can't control Putin and we aren't able to effect regime change in a nuclear state. The only decision left to us is how best to control it.

Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

#33

Post by tlogan »

alkonaut wrote: post #6

"I must invade a neighboring country to prevent having NATO on my doorstep" - Vladimir Vladimirovich, master strategist "Whoa, if countries are annexed willy nilly then we better join NATO before it happens to us" - Every single one of those doorsteps

There is an old Serbian joke: do you know why Serbia is an Russian ally? Because Russia is far away.

Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

#34

Post by [deleted] »

walkhour wrote: post #26
yks wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the small countries exist and if they cannot rely on big countries for protection against nuclear states, then the only way forward for them is to have their own nuclear weapons. Do you like that world better? Does it lower or heighten the risk of unleashing the “end of humanity”?

I don't accept that dichotomy despite I see value in the argument. Since the invention of nuclear bombs, how many countries without nuclear weapons have lost their sovereignty of those surrounding Russia? Btw if it's either NATO or nuclear bombs, why didn't Finland get nuclear bombs in the last 60 years?

[deleted]

Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

#35

Post by jcranmer »

alkonaut wrote: post #6

"I must invade a neighboring country to prevent having NATO on my doorstep" - Vladimir Vladimirovich, master strategist "Whoa, if countries are annexed willy nilly then we better join NATO before it happens to us" - Every single one of those doorsteps

I can't take credit for this, but:

Putin was looking to Finlandize NATO, but ended up NATOizing Finland instead.

Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

#36

Post by Olphs »

snehk wrote: post #17

I'm very happy that Finland is part of the team now. Sweden can stay out of Nato for all I care unless they finally cooperate with Germany when it comes to the Nord Stream bombings instead of hiding their findings.

> unless they finally cooperate with Germany when it comes to the Nord Stream bombings instead of hiding their findings.

Didn't see that coming

Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

#37

Post by ptero »

arethuza wrote: post #16
walkhour wrote: post #10

This is an excellent deal for Finland, whose sovereignty is protected. Is it the same for the US? Do I want an attack against Finland to be considered an attack against the US? An attack against the US can unleash the end of humanity. I find very risky to leave this at the whims of some out of touch Russian dictator.

Interestingly enough - the US is the only country to have invoked article 5 which is the principle that an attack on one member is considered an attack on all - in response to the 9/11 attacks.

To nitpick: it was not the US that invoked article 5 after 9/11. It was driven by its European allies, which wanted a show of support at that time, to be expressed any way they could.

The actual impact of that article 5 was pretty non-existent. 9/11 was not a declaration of war by a state; it was an action of a well-organized group. There are no specific actions that this article 5 could imply beyond the PR.

Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

#38

Post by medstrom »

walkhour wrote: post #26
yks wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the small countries exist and if they cannot rely on big countries for protection against nuclear states, then the only way forward for them is to have their own nuclear weapons. Do you like that world better? Does it lower or heighten the risk of unleashing the “end of humanity”?

I don't accept that dichotomy despite I see value in the argument. Since the invention of nuclear bombs, how many countries without nuclear weapons have lost their sovereignty of those surrounding Russia? Btw if it's either NATO or nuclear bombs, why didn't Finland get nuclear bombs in the last 60 years?

You make a good point. But Finland would develop nukes now if not for the option to join NATO. People are saying that the nonaligned countries didn't use to worry because Russia used to respect the international order, the one where you don't touch borders for no reason, and that illusion has now shattered.

Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

#39

Post by otikik »

yks wrote: post #18
walkhour wrote: post #10

This is an excellent deal for Finland, whose sovereignty is protected. Is it the same for the US? Do I want an attack against Finland to be considered an attack against the US? An attack against the US can unleash the end of humanity. I find very risky to leave this at the whims of some out of touch Russian dictator.

So the small countries exist and if they cannot rely on big countries for protection against nuclear states, then the only way forward for them is to have their own nuclear weapons. Do you like that world better? Does it lower or heighten the risk of unleashing the “end of humanity”?

That ... is the world where we live in, more or less.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_with_nuclear_we...

> Under NATO nuclear weapons sharing, the United States has provided nuclear weapons for Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, and Turkey to deploy and store

Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

#40

Post by haspok »

walkhour wrote: post #10

This is an excellent deal for Finland, whose sovereignty is protected. Is it the same for the US? Do I want an attack against Finland to be considered an attack against the US? An attack against the US can unleash the end of humanity. I find very risky to leave this at the whims of some out of touch Russian dictator.

Don't be so condescending - Finland is one of the few countries that successfully resisted a Russian invasion. It is very much capable of protecting itself, much more so than Ukraine (which is also doing it, albeit with significant support from the west).

The NATO (and the US actually) benefits a lot by Finland joining, and will benefit from Sweden joining too - only a matter of time.

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