Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees • Hacker News Board

Re: Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees

#31

Post by lrobb » Sat, Jan 28, 2012, 3:21 PM UTC

neves wrote: post #15

The problem is not just that the employees have less options where to find a job. The real problem is that the employees don't know about the agreement! If I work at Pixar and prospect Intel for a job, they will tell my boss and my carreer at Pixar will be messed for ever. I had a boss that liked to fire employees who he knew were searching for jobs elsewhere. He would announce in job sites good offers asking for can…

Not too uncommon... and why people should never apply if the poster uses an anonymous address (ala craigslist).

Re: Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees

#32

Post by nyellin » Sat, Jan 28, 2012, 3:22 PM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #29

I am surprised that people are surprised by this. Who do VCs spend their skiing trips with: ramen-fed, sleep-deprived startup founders, or other VCs? Of course, they hang out with each other. Same with executives at large companies. They might be nominally "competitors", but they've already learned that they have more in common with one another than with employees in the companies they run.

We are surprised by the blatant disregard for employee rights and that they would do something so illegal.

Re: Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees

#33

Post by itmag » Sat, Jan 28, 2012, 3:26 PM UTC

Gee, I didn't know that employees were akin to the King's game, making it a Bad Thing to poach them.

In my world, poaching employees == offering them better options in exchange for the value generating capabilities that they bring to the table. Quid pro quo, and if someone else offers a better quo...

Re: Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees

#34

Post by itmag » Sat, Jan 28, 2012, 3:28 PM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #29

I am surprised that people are surprised by this. Who do VCs spend their skiing trips with: ramen-fed, sleep-deprived startup founders, or other VCs? Of course, they hang out with each other. Same with executives at large companies. They might be nominally "competitors", but they've already learned that they have more in common with one another than with employees in the companies they run.

The idea that small cabals of individuals can act in collusion like this goes against the commonly held view of the economy as an anonymous force of nature that always moves toward efficient equilibrium. But sometimes that's just what happens.

Re: Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees

#35

Post by abrahamsen » Sat, Jan 28, 2012, 3:29 PM UTC

omonra wrote: post #18

josefresco wrote: post #8

I can only imagine how hard it is to have fair negotiations when a prospective employee applies at a competing company only to be told "no thanks" simply because of a hush hush agreement between the executives of said companies. This flies counter with Google's "do no evil" statement and certainly doesn't paint a positive posthumous picture of Jobs.

I'm tired of people bringing up 'don't do evil' EVERY time Google does something they dislike. New search results using personal targeting - EVIL! Anti-poaching agreement with Apple - EVIL! Closed down a bagel cafe next to my cubicle - EVIL! Can we all agree that the word Evil has a more sinister use - ie knowing endangering lives, environmental damage, maybe closing press freedoms? And, therefore, we should be more…

I agree in general, but this one (stifling competition by illegal methods) happens to be within my particular corporate evilness threshold. Unlike every previous evil Google has been accused of.

The problem with a word like evil is that it is so subjective. For some, obeying repressive laws in China would be the ultimate evil Google has committed. Using Google's own definition of evil, using the entire right side of the search results for self-advertising could be seen as evil.

However, ultimately I agree. Since evil is so subjective, very little information is provided by calling out Google in particular for being evil and thus hypocritical.

Condemning all the involved companies equally would make more sense.

(But I can't help feeling more disappointed Google was part of this).

Re: Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees

#36

Post by deanproxy » Sat, Jan 28, 2012, 3:32 PM UTC

omonra wrote: post #21

va_coder wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. The "do no evil" was a way of saying let's not be like Microsoft and allow ourself to engage in unfair business practices. Google is now like Microsoft.

"That's like..your opinion, man" :) So if someone wants to say that Google is becoming like MSFT - say that (incidentally regarding MST being evil I recently read this: http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2012/01/antitrust_kills.... ) But I think that we should not dilute the definition of Evil.

Why not? Everyone has already diluted the meaning of the word "greed" successfully. Might as well start on "evil" now. :-)

But in all fairness, non-poaching agreements are not right. What if every tech company did this? You better hope you never have to leave that company after they hire you... Cause otherwise you'll have to consider a career change.

Re: Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees

#37

Post by michaelochurch » Sat, Jan 28, 2012, 3:35 PM UTC

nyellin wrote: post #32

michaelochurch wrote: post #29

I am surprised that people are surprised by this. Who do VCs spend their skiing trips with: ramen-fed, sleep-deprived startup founders, or other VCs? Of course, they hang out with each other. Same with executives at large companies. They might be nominally "competitors", but they've already learned that they have more in common with one another than with employees in the companies they run.

We are surprised by the blatant disregard for employee rights and that they would do something so illegal.

I guess I'm cynical, but I'm not surprised. I wouldn't have expected some specific individuals (I thought more of Eric Schmidt; I always liked him) to be involved but the behavior is not shocking. Yes, it's shitty and illegal. No, it's not at all surprising.

Let's say that you're talking to an investor and you tell him that you're being courted by another VC and that he needs to act fast. What's the first thing he'll do, if he takes you seriously? Pick up the phone and call the guy (they were classmates in business school, and it's "bros before schmos", man.) If there was proper competition, that sort of thing would never happen.

Social class is an ugly reality and people in higher social classes always look out for each other first. The real competition is insiders vs. outsiders. Human societies are naturally conspiratorial. I don't know what the solution to this problem is (other than, individually, to just keep working hard and trying to be awesome enough that the general wankbasketry of humanity doesn't matter) but it's obvious that our current regulatory machinery is too thin.

Re: Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees

#38

Post by jbae29 » Sat, Jan 28, 2012, 3:42 PM UTC

vacri wrote: post #12

bwarp wrote: post #4

This is 100% why you shouldn't work for a big corporation. You're a resource rather than an employee.

Same in small companies. In our company of 14 people, my last HR meeting had the officer dismissing my mention of doing 30-60 minutes unpaid daily overtime as 'it's a small company, that happens'. They were trying to nail me into a contract doing even more unpaid work: 'Sometimes that happens in a small company' -> 'Yes, I do the in-house IT, and it's part of the job, but I'm letting you know that it's every day' ->…

This should just depend on whether you're an exempt or non exempt employee. Most IT professionals are classified as exempt meaning they do not qualify for overtime.

If you're paid hourly, or work as a contractor, you should be paid for all your hours.

Re: Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees

#39

Post by michaelochurch » Sat, Jan 28, 2012, 3:42 PM UTC

itmag wrote: post #34

michaelochurch wrote: post #29

I am surprised that people are surprised by this. Who do VCs spend their skiing trips with: ramen-fed, sleep-deprived startup founders, or other VCs? Of course, they hang out with each other. Same with executives at large companies. They might be nominally "competitors", but they've already learned that they have more in common with one another than with employees in the companies they run.

The idea that small cabals of individuals can act in collusion like this goes against the commonly held view of the economy as an anonymous force of nature that always moves toward efficient equilibrium. But sometimes that's just what happens.

Why I find "conspiracy theories" ridiculous: with "friends" (above-board entities like corporations, proud of having titled nobility... er, I mean, executives; I forgot that "America doesn't have a hereditary aristocracy") like our leading large institutions, who needs enemies? Why invent shadowy evil organizations when there are so many objectively-visible and extremely greedy (if not quite evil, and most often too stupid and poorly-run to pull off the levels of evil we imagine) ones?

The evil-evils don't meet in shadowy mansions with bad lighting and creepy piano music. They meet in private parties in Aspen and executive boardrooms and on the boards of "charities" that really exist as a scoreboard for the social status of rich people. They also don't have huge orgies. They visit prostitutes half their age whom they pay $1500/night to endure their post-coital crying about their mistakes (such as marrying dumb trophy/corporate wives and having to write high-six-figure donation checks to shove their low-IQ kids into Ivies).

There isn't "one conspiracy to rule them all", but there are lower-case-c conspiracies all over the place.

Re: Steve Jobs personally asked Eric Schmidt to stop poaching employees

#40

Post by jballanc » Sat, Jan 28, 2012, 3:43 PM UTC

I think anyone whose opinion of Steve Jobs is changed by this knowledge needs to take a good look in the mirror and ask if they are not the hypocrite. Jobs always was a consumate businessman. Before Apple, even, he was scheming his way through a job, getting Wozniak to do his work and going back on his word to split profits.

But isn't that what America is all about? Aren't your shoes, clothes, electronics, etc. made by low wage workers at companies run by men and women who are willing to do anything for an extra dollar? Isn't that capitalism? Isn't that their "fiduciary duty to the shareholders"?

In the world of engineering, engineers are a resource just as oil is a resource for an oil company. Do you also get angry when oil companies hire lobbyists to wine-and-dine politicians until they give favorable exploration rights on federal lands to those companies? How is this any different, morally?

Ultimately, the really hard question is: would we have the iPod, iPhone, MacBook Air, iPad if Jobs had not done what he did?