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FreeBSD on the Framework Laptop

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Re: FreeBSD on the Framework Laptop

#31

Post by dark-star »

filmgirlcw wrote: post #25
cowtools wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if FreeBSD had a copyleft license, maybe companies would have a reason to publish their drivers, or you could port drivers from Linux.

That’s probably true but it cuts both ways too. I don’t know if the lack of copy left license is the problem as much as the momentum. The various Unix and BSD wars (that were predicated on a much different licensing challenge) and splintering of the communities has meant there was never a big way for developer or even manufacturer interest to really focus. OpenBSD has a very different philosophy related to drivers th…

From what I heard, at least some companies that use FreeBSD in their products do give back and upstream at least bits of their code (like Sony, NetApp, ...). Probably mostly improvements to existing kernel subsystems, maybe not drivers, if the hardware isn't freely available... but they still participate in development. At the end of the day, it is in their interest as it lessens the maintenance burden of forward-porting everything to every new kernel version.

Re: FreeBSD on the Framework Laptop

#32

Post by salawat »

keewee7 wrote: post #18
cowtools wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if FreeBSD had a copyleft license, maybe companies would have a reason to publish their drivers, or you could port drivers from Linux.

Aren't most Linux drivers closed source binary blobs?

No. You're thinking firmware.

The driver layer (code around firmware that initializes the hardware and marshals/unmarshals comms to/from the device).tends to be GPL lest it taint the kernel. The firmware on the other hand, is the last unconquered vestige of the Open Source landscape. Logic locking, and the prevalence/nature of fabless semiconductor IP tends to make that endeavor incredibly difficult.

Re: FreeBSD on the Framework Laptop

#33

Post by [deleted] »

dark-star wrote: post #7

Man, FreeBSD really needs some driver love... * No Suspend/Resume? Linux has solved this for years, I have not come across a laptop in the last 10 years that had trouble with s2r or s2d (but I guess that there might be a few that don't fully support it, I mainly tested Dell laptops) * WiFi driver and Ethernet over USB-C both highly unstable? That's an Intel chipset, those are usually the more stable ones (at least on…

[deleted]

Re: FreeBSD on the Framework Laptop

#34

Post by filmgirlcw »

dark-star wrote: post #31
filmgirlcw wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s probably true but it cuts both ways too. I don’t know if the lack of copy left license is the problem as much as the momentum. The various Unix and BSD wars (that were predicated on a much different licensing challenge) and splintering of the communities has meant there was never a big way for developer or even manufacturer interest to really focus. OpenBSD has a very different philosophy related to drivers th…

From what I heard, at least some companies that use FreeBSD in their products do give back and upstream at least bits of their code (like Sony, NetApp, ...). Probably mostly improvements to existing kernel subsystems, maybe not drivers, if the hardware isn't freely available... but they still participate in development. At the end of the day, it is in their interest as it lessens the maintenance burden of forward-por…

Correct! And that’s sort of my point. But I don’t think a lot of those companies care about wifi drivers working on laptops, as an example.

It is absolutely in their interest to help. But if people expect companies to just write a driver for X operating system, that’s not realistic. And if you could just port the Linux drivers, sure, that would be easier, but it wouldn’t change the fact that device makers still have the be able to prioritize where to put their resources. And laptop FreeBSD users is probably really low on most lists.

Re: FreeBSD on the Framework Laptop

#35

Post by jayp1418 »

ruslan wrote: post #30
phist_mcgee wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you really write all of those pages by hand?? It appears incredibly comprehensive. Did you write it just for fun?

Yes, I wrote it just for fun. It was a kind of challenge for me, both resolving issues and describing them in detail to let new people in town learn how issues can be resolved. Last time I wrote anything that long was my diploma thesis 20+ years go. :-) This work took me nearly four months to accomplish.

Cool. Let us know if you write one about NetBSD :)

Re: FreeBSD on the Framework Laptop

#36

Post by ruslan »

jayp1418 wrote: post #35
ruslan wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I wrote it just for fun. It was a kind of challenge for me, both resolving issues and describing them in detail to let new people in town learn how issues can be resolved. Last time I wrote anything that long was my diploma thesis 20+ years go. :-) This work took me nearly four months to accomplish.

Cool. Let us know if you write one about NetBSD :)

Sure. ;)

Re: FreeBSD on the Framework Laptop

#37

Post by vbernat »

dark-star wrote: post #7

Man, FreeBSD really needs some driver love... * No Suspend/Resume? Linux has solved this for years, I have not come across a laptop in the last 10 years that had trouble with s2r or s2d (but I guess that there might be a few that don't fully support it, I mainly tested Dell laptops) * WiFi driver and Ethernet over USB-C both highly unstable? That's an Intel chipset, those are usually the more stable ones (at least on…

Ethernet is likely a Realtek chipset (on the docking station). Intel does not do Ethernet over USB chipsets.

Re: FreeBSD on the Framework Laptop

#38

Post by colechristensen »

keewee7 wrote: post #18
cowtools wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if FreeBSD had a copyleft license, maybe companies would have a reason to publish their drivers, or you could port drivers from Linux.

Aren't most Linux drivers closed source binary blobs?

"most" and "drivers" are things that need specific usages to be true, but if you drop them and restate, you're absolutely right.

It is really hard to have a complete personal computer on Linux or any other OS that doesn't require closed source / proprietary binary blobs.

Re: FreeBSD on the Framework Laptop

#39

Post by behnamoh »

filmgirlcw wrote: post #25
cowtools wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if FreeBSD had a copyleft license, maybe companies would have a reason to publish their drivers, or you could port drivers from Linux.

That’s probably true but it cuts both ways too. I don’t know if the lack of copy left license is the problem as much as the momentum. The various Unix and BSD wars (that were predicated on a much different licensing challenge) and splintering of the communities has meant there was never a big way for developer or even manufacturer interest to really focus. OpenBSD has a very different philosophy related to drivers th…

> But Linux got its shit together first and was able to benefit from that.

Linux is not a company or person. It's the people behind Linux who got it together, but sadly BSD folks have left behind.

> Apple and to a lesser-extent, Solaris, show that you can still have broader hardware support and drivers without a copyleft license.

You're comparing Apple (a company, and a FAANG of them no less) with community-driven projects. Apples and oranges, almost literally.

Re: FreeBSD on the Framework Laptop

#40

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

cowtools wrote: post #12
dark-star wrote: post #7

Man, FreeBSD really needs some driver love... * No Suspend/Resume? Linux has solved this for years, I have not come across a laptop in the last 10 years that had trouble with s2r or s2d (but I guess that there might be a few that don't fully support it, I mainly tested Dell laptops) * WiFi driver and Ethernet over USB-C both highly unstable? That's an Intel chipset, those are usually the more stable ones (at least on…

if FreeBSD had a copyleft license, maybe companies would have a reason to publish their drivers, or you could port drivers from Linux.

What company do you think is writing FreeBSD drivers for the framework - or any laptop - and not sharing them?
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