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Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

nautil.us

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Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#31

Post by bowsamic »

simonh wrote: post #8

How to approach loss of consciousness is one of the problems I have with non-materialist theories of consciousness like dualism and panpsychism. If consciousness is not generated by my physical brain, how come physical chemicals can manipulate my conscious state? If the brain is a receiver for consciousness, surely my consciousness should exist independently of my brain? Interfering with a radio doesn’t change what’s…

The Buddhist answer is that all of physical reality is also in the mind. Rather than physical and mental being separate, physical reality itself is constructed by the mind

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#33

Post by mongol »

mathieuh wrote: post #7

I've overdosed on heroin before and when I woke up in hospital I had no feeling that time had passed, it was like I time travelled to a point in the future without experiencing the intervening points. Is it the same under anaesthesia or is it more like being asleep in that when you wake up and come to your senses again you are aware of it being later? Because my overdose felt like I just didn't exist for a couple of…

Mine was not. I had knee surgery, and I had vivid dreams of an arousing kind. I heard later that that was not uncommon.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#34

Post by bowsamic »

pas wrote: post #22
simonh wrote: post #8

How to approach loss of consciousness is one of the problems I have with non-materialist theories of consciousness like dualism and panpsychism. If consciousness is not generated by my physical brain, how come physical chemicals can manipulate my conscious state? If the brain is a receiver for consciousness, surely my consciousness should exist independently of my brain? Interfering with a radio doesn’t change what’s…

Isn't panpsychism orthogonal to materialism? Isn't the trivial solution in the non-material case just regular mumbo jumbo? Ie. the connection between the consciousness and the body is severed by propofol while it's active, and so memories are not formed to keep you sane, or whatever? It stops when it gets to Nirvana, etc? All the attempts to explain it with non-materialism seems to very bluntly fail Ockham's razor. S…

Occam's razor = the theory with the fewest parameters should be preferred, or often interpreted as the simplest theory.

Do you think that humans universally or even have historically interpreted physicalism as a simpler theory than a non-materialist one? I don't think so

I think you speak from an already materialist perspective, in that you accept the physical world as something that really exists out there, and that your own subjective being is less tangible or somehow illusory compared to that. That is the opposite way round from how Buddhists felt it obvious to consider it, which was to always frame everything from the first person, human experience (the five skandhas, the eight consciousnesses, etc.)

Personally, I think it's simpler and more obvious to have that first person explanation from the point of view of where I actually seem to be, rather than an explanation that everything I see is real but somehow I am not. Why would I see my immediate experience of reality as less real than the objects that I perceive to be external to me?

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#35

Post by stubish »

simonh wrote: post #8

How to approach loss of consciousness is one of the problems I have with non-materialist theories of consciousness like dualism and panpsychism. If consciousness is not generated by my physical brain, how come physical chemicals can manipulate my conscious state? If the brain is a receiver for consciousness, surely my consciousness should exist independently of my brain? Interfering with a radio doesn’t change what’s…

If the brain is a receiver for consciousness, it does not imply that consciousness exists independently of your brain. The consciousness would require inputs, which come from the brain. You could assume that the consciousness is paused when those inputs stop. Our perception of time is after all subjective. Although this all kind of defeats the purpose of believing in a non-materialist theory of consciousness.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#36

Post by FartyMcFarter »

EmilyHughes wrote: post #21

From a purely empirical standpoint our minds go nowhere. Your whole life is nothing but an unbroken stream of consciousness, you never slept a day in your life. Just because you can wake up, point at a clock and create a story that so-and-so many hours have passed doesn't mean anything. There might be more time passing for the people who are "awake" during this time, but this is not a problem for the universal mind.…

This theory requires you to distrust a lot of people who saw you sleeping for a long time.

It also requires ignoring a lot of common sense knowledge. For example, the chicken you left marinating overnight for your breakfast became quite tasty, why is that so if no time has passed?

Why does your body become lighter overnight?

The inconsistencies just keep piling on if you want to believe time doesn't pass when you're sleeping.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#37

Post by muzani »

Razengan wrote: post #2

Nevermind anesthesia, what about every day during sleep?

They're all different brain functions. A lot of brain stuff happens during REM and deep sleep. Different brain stuff happens during concussions and anesthesia. I wish it was as easy as some planned experiment monitoring input/output but brains are complex.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#38

Post by muzani »

danhau wrote: post #24
simonh wrote: post #8

How to approach loss of consciousness is one of the problems I have with non-materialist theories of consciousness like dualism and panpsychism. If consciousness is not generated by my physical brain, how come physical chemicals can manipulate my conscious state? If the brain is a receiver for consciousness, surely my consciousness should exist independently of my brain? Interfering with a radio doesn’t change what’s…

I'm not arguing for or against anything here, but regarding your comparison: > If the brain is a receiver for consciousness, surely my consciousness should exist independently of my brain? Interfering with a radio doesn’t change what’s happening in the recording studio. Interfering with a radio distorts the transmitted, outcoming sound. You could say your perceived consciousness is just that: something transmitted fr…

Yeah, the radio is silent when it's off. The radio is needed to turn the signal into something.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#39

Post by [deleted] »

simonh wrote: post #8

How to approach loss of consciousness is one of the problems I have with non-materialist theories of consciousness like dualism and panpsychism. If consciousness is not generated by my physical brain, how come physical chemicals can manipulate my conscious state? If the brain is a receiver for consciousness, surely my consciousness should exist independently of my brain? Interfering with a radio doesn’t change what’s…

[deleted]

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#40

Post by Flow »

mathieuh wrote: post #7

I've overdosed on heroin before and when I woke up in hospital I had no feeling that time had passed, it was like I time travelled to a point in the future without experiencing the intervening points. Is it the same under anaesthesia or is it more like being asleep in that when you wake up and come to your senses again you are aware of it being later? Because my overdose felt like I just didn't exist for a couple of…

I read a thread at Reddit about people that have been in a coma. Most of the people said they had no idea of the time passed. No dreams, no nothing.

Other people said they dream like during the night, but had less awareness of time. So not like when I sleep and sometimes feel that this dream is stupid/frustrating/repetitive and either I should wake up now or the dream should change.

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