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Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

nautil.us

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Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#21

Post by EmilyHughes »

From a purely empirical standpoint our minds go nowhere. Your whole life is nothing but an unbroken stream of consciousness, you never slept a day in your life. Just because you can wake up, point at a clock and create a story that so-and-so many hours have passed doesn't mean anything.

There might be more time passing for the people who are "awake" during this time, but this is not a problem for the universal mind. It simply squeezes the missing time in there and synchronizes individual minds together again later.

Also interesting: The thought "I was under anaesthesia for 12 hours" is itself an object that appears in consciousness.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#22

Post by pas »

simonh wrote: post #8

How to approach loss of consciousness is one of the problems I have with non-materialist theories of consciousness like dualism and panpsychism. If consciousness is not generated by my physical brain, how come physical chemicals can manipulate my conscious state? If the brain is a receiver for consciousness, surely my consciousness should exist independently of my brain? Interfering with a radio doesn’t change what’s…

Isn't panpsychism orthogonal to materialism?

Isn't the trivial solution in the non-material case just regular mumbo jumbo? Ie. the connection between the consciousness and the body is severed by propofol while it's active, and so memories are not formed to keep you sane, or whatever? It stops when it gets to Nirvana, etc?

All the attempts to explain it with non-materialism seems to very bluntly fail Ockham's razor. Sure, before fMRI and anesthesia it was a lot easier to compare the two theories and not see the huge extra burden for proof of any kind of non-materialism.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#23

Post by pas »

downboots wrote: post #19
simonh wrote: post #8

How to approach loss of consciousness is one of the problems I have with non-materialist theories of consciousness like dualism and panpsychism. If consciousness is not generated by my physical brain, how come physical chemicals can manipulate my conscious state? If the brain is a receiver for consciousness, surely my consciousness should exist independently of my brain? Interfering with a radio doesn’t change what’s…

Reducing the brain to a more complicated version of a pocket calculator doesn't change the platonic ideal of number.

Sure, but isn't the question that which one do we actually have for a mind?

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#24

Post by danhau »

simonh wrote: post #8

How to approach loss of consciousness is one of the problems I have with non-materialist theories of consciousness like dualism and panpsychism. If consciousness is not generated by my physical brain, how come physical chemicals can manipulate my conscious state? If the brain is a receiver for consciousness, surely my consciousness should exist independently of my brain? Interfering with a radio doesn’t change what’s…

I'm not arguing for or against anything here, but regarding your comparison:

> If the brain is a receiver for consciousness, surely my consciousness should exist independently of my brain? Interfering with a radio doesn’t change what’s happening in the recording studio.

Interfering with a radio distorts the transmitted, outcoming sound. You could say your perceived consciousness is just that: something transmitted from an origin. The state of the brain could then very well mess with conciousness. It could add or remove harmonics, delay, EQ, filters, etc.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#25

Post by newusertoday »

simonh wrote: post #8

How to approach loss of consciousness is one of the problems I have with non-materialist theories of consciousness like dualism and panpsychism. If consciousness is not generated by my physical brain, how come physical chemicals can manipulate my conscious state? If the brain is a receiver for consciousness, surely my consciousness should exist independently of my brain? Interfering with a radio doesn’t change what’s…

Your questions are right however you are assuming there is some state of conciousness there isn't it is the state of content of consciousness when all objects are removed from it than what is experienced is what you are calling loss of consciousness but that is not how spiritual text describe it or people who claim to be enlightened describe it unfortunately science has not progressed enough to solve "hard problem of conciousness" but the good news is you can still verify this claim experientially yourself and decide if its true or false for you.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#26

Post by AgentME »

mathieuh wrote: post #7

I've overdosed on heroin before and when I woke up in hospital I had no feeling that time had passed, it was like I time travelled to a point in the future without experiencing the intervening points. Is it the same under anaesthesia or is it more like being asleep in that when you wake up and come to your senses again you are aware of it being later? Because my overdose felt like I just didn't exist for a couple of…

When I was put under so my wisdom teeth could be pulled out, I remember the IV line being put in, the doctor starting to count down from 10 and maybe getting to 7, and then suddenly I was in the parking lot with my mom actively walking out of the place. I confusedly asked if we should go back so they could actually do the operation, and then I realized there was gauze wrap in my mouth from the completed operation.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#27

Post by EmilyHughes »

simonh wrote: post #8

How to approach loss of consciousness is one of the problems I have with non-materialist theories of consciousness like dualism and panpsychism. If consciousness is not generated by my physical brain, how come physical chemicals can manipulate my conscious state? If the brain is a receiver for consciousness, surely my consciousness should exist independently of my brain? Interfering with a radio doesn’t change what’s…

The radio-receiver metaphor doesn't go far enough as it still assumes a somewhat physical brain, but it helps at first untangeling yourself from materialism. If reality is nothing but a dream it would be no problem to dream up a brain that modulates the dream-content if it is manipulated.

- Taking red paint and spraying it over your wall will modulate the dream in such that the wall appears red.

- Taking a hammer and hitting your head will modulate the dream in more unpredicatable ways.

What if these processes are the same? It's nothing but stuff made out of consciousness affecting consciousness.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#28

Post by newusertoday »

pas wrote: post #22
simonh wrote: post #8

How to approach loss of consciousness is one of the problems I have with non-materialist theories of consciousness like dualism and panpsychism. If consciousness is not generated by my physical brain, how come physical chemicals can manipulate my conscious state? If the brain is a receiver for consciousness, surely my consciousness should exist independently of my brain? Interfering with a radio doesn’t change what’s…

Isn't panpsychism orthogonal to materialism? Isn't the trivial solution in the non-material case just regular mumbo jumbo? Ie. the connection between the consciousness and the body is severed by propofol while it's active, and so memories are not formed to keep you sane, or whatever? It stops when it gets to Nirvana, etc? All the attempts to explain it with non-materialism seems to very bluntly fail Ockham's razor. S…

there was same problem earlier as well with deep sleep.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#29

Post by avh02 »

porker wrote: post #13
simonh wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s the same. I had surgery last year and it seemed like it was over in an instant. When you’re asleep your mind drifts in an out of different levels of awareness and consciousness from time to time so you have some experience of time passing. With anaesthesia in my experience there’s just nothing. Trying to remember what it was like, you might as well be trying to remember what it was like before you were born.

Yes. I found it incredibly disorientating, even after the event because time has passed and I have no awareness of it.

I had my first full anesthesia experience as an adult - emergency but minor surgery, so not an extremely scary ordeal. I was very distinctly trying to pay attention to the process of going under, as in: do i feel it fade? etc.

I remember doing the countdown thing and also trying to see if i could notice it at all like going to sleep. but, just like an off switch, no state change, just a full stop (but without something like "blackness"). First woke up to voices of nurses chitchatting across the recovery room and knowing everything was okay.

But as another comment put it, I can only imagine death being similar (if instant/unexpected/while sleeping/etc), just without the coming back. Which is scarier.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#30

Post by Ekaros »

Razengan wrote: post #2

Nevermind anesthesia, what about every day during sleep?

It is bit strange. Sometimes there is various levels of dreams, sometimes there is vague feeling of remembering something or waking up for moments.

And then there is those times when time is simply gone. Look at clock, it is 2. Move head next time it is 6... In time that feels like an instant.

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